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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Revised and rebalanced dragons for 1e AD&D
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7217289" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>This is a reoccurring problem with most 1e AD&D end game monsters. Very few have a combination of hit points and defenses that would allow them to survive more than a single round against a well equipped party of name level or higher. The greater daemons are just about the only example I can name of 'out of the box' monsters with defenses sufficient to accomplish that. </p><p></p><p>I felt the comprehensive rebuild was justified owing to the number of problems the original design has:</p><p></p><p>a) Young dragons have the same 'to hit', damage, AC, and XP award (and technically length!) of the larger ones. Consequently, as dragons get larger and older they on the whole get relatively less fearsome, the opposite of what would be desirable.</p><p>b) A dragon's breathe weapon will TPK a party they are meant to fight in 1 or 2 rounds, unless that party is magically prepared against its breathe weapon. But a combat with a dragon is unlikely to go more than a single round any way. As a result, by the time you get to the initiative roll, the battle is basically over. </p><p>c) Aside from the breathe weapon, no dragon was really designed to challenge parties above 10th or 11th level. The core rules for an end game monster like a dragon should provide basically unlimited gameplay, and suggest monsters effective against a party of basically any level. I'm reasonably confident that the huge great wyrm red is the most powerful non-divine, non-unique monster published for 1e, and is at least comparable to beings such as Oonga and Demogorgon. And if your 23rd level PC party isn't impressed by that, try a three headed venomous version on them. </p><p>d) The sort of dragons which the DM would want to select for game reasons ('appropriate challenge') should not be limited by ecosystem. There should be reasonably weak dragons available even if you aren't in the arctic, and reasonably strong ones even if you aren't in a volcano. For example, you have to be quite high level before a huge three-headed great wyrm white dragon is not serious problem. On the other hand, a small very young red is a 12' long dragon that you might be able to make into a highly satisfying boss monster against a 4th level party and make them fill like BDHs when they defeat it.</p><p>e) Dragons need to not die cheesy deaths, but should legitimately require heroes taking risks to defeat them.</p><p>f) The breathe weapon is no longer the overriding concern. Combat with a party probably will go at least 5-6 rounds, yet the breathe weapon damage over that period while threatening, isn't on its own a TPK threat. Combat is therefore more unpredictable, more reactive, and hopefully 'cinematic' with visually interesting attack options and movement, rather than the straight forward beat down I'd expect against typical 1e dragons.</p><p>g) As much as possible I wanted to support the diversity of Western dragons as they actually appear in myth and story out of the box. You don't think dragons have wings? Fine. Your dragons loop around St. George like a coiling snake? I can cover that. You want your bog standard dragons to breathe fire. I can work with that. Does the bite of your dragon poison the hero even after they deliver the fatal wound. Ok. You might can tell though I have a bit of a problem with the 'mated pair' concept, which - compared to how often non-solitary dragons appear in myth and story - felt like a gamist concession to the fact that one dragon might not be enough mechanically to be a problem. I left it in there as an option, but discouraged it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7217289, member: 4937"] This is a reoccurring problem with most 1e AD&D end game monsters. Very few have a combination of hit points and defenses that would allow them to survive more than a single round against a well equipped party of name level or higher. The greater daemons are just about the only example I can name of 'out of the box' monsters with defenses sufficient to accomplish that. I felt the comprehensive rebuild was justified owing to the number of problems the original design has: a) Young dragons have the same 'to hit', damage, AC, and XP award (and technically length!) of the larger ones. Consequently, as dragons get larger and older they on the whole get relatively less fearsome, the opposite of what would be desirable. b) A dragon's breathe weapon will TPK a party they are meant to fight in 1 or 2 rounds, unless that party is magically prepared against its breathe weapon. But a combat with a dragon is unlikely to go more than a single round any way. As a result, by the time you get to the initiative roll, the battle is basically over. c) Aside from the breathe weapon, no dragon was really designed to challenge parties above 10th or 11th level. The core rules for an end game monster like a dragon should provide basically unlimited gameplay, and suggest monsters effective against a party of basically any level. I'm reasonably confident that the huge great wyrm red is the most powerful non-divine, non-unique monster published for 1e, and is at least comparable to beings such as Oonga and Demogorgon. And if your 23rd level PC party isn't impressed by that, try a three headed venomous version on them. d) The sort of dragons which the DM would want to select for game reasons ('appropriate challenge') should not be limited by ecosystem. There should be reasonably weak dragons available even if you aren't in the arctic, and reasonably strong ones even if you aren't in a volcano. For example, you have to be quite high level before a huge three-headed great wyrm white dragon is not serious problem. On the other hand, a small very young red is a 12' long dragon that you might be able to make into a highly satisfying boss monster against a 4th level party and make them fill like BDHs when they defeat it. e) Dragons need to not die cheesy deaths, but should legitimately require heroes taking risks to defeat them. f) The breathe weapon is no longer the overriding concern. Combat with a party probably will go at least 5-6 rounds, yet the breathe weapon damage over that period while threatening, isn't on its own a TPK threat. Combat is therefore more unpredictable, more reactive, and hopefully 'cinematic' with visually interesting attack options and movement, rather than the straight forward beat down I'd expect against typical 1e dragons. g) As much as possible I wanted to support the diversity of Western dragons as they actually appear in myth and story out of the box. You don't think dragons have wings? Fine. Your dragons loop around St. George like a coiling snake? I can cover that. You want your bog standard dragons to breathe fire. I can work with that. Does the bite of your dragon poison the hero even after they deliver the fatal wound. Ok. You might can tell though I have a bit of a problem with the 'mated pair' concept, which - compared to how often non-solitary dragons appear in myth and story - felt like a gamist concession to the fact that one dragon might not be enough mechanically to be a problem. I left it in there as an option, but discouraged it. [/QUOTE]
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