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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7487930" data-attributes="member: 4937">I can't agree from any perspective on the matter.First, I've done some theory crafting and the physical damage with the possible exception of the bite is very solid.&nbsp; The current design hits or passes the expected physical damage of the 1e RAW at age category 5 and then just keeps going, massively exceeding the 1e RAW and obviating the need for the x2 attack rate suggest by some 1e revisions.Secondly, from the stand point of verisimilitude to setting, I still can't agree.&nbsp; These dragons are not as big as you are imagining them or as later editions made them.&nbsp; They don't hit the RAW 1e size standard until Venerable (age category 7) and even that size is smaller than the size implied by later editions.&nbsp; They are I think still pretty big if you were to meet one face to face, but only a few of the bigger ones are typical movie dragon size and none of them are as big as Peter &quot;I never saw a vertical scale I didn't think needed increasing&quot; Jackson's movie Smaug.&nbsp; They are much closer to Skyrim size, and maybe a little smaller.&nbsp; For example, an adult black is only 21' long and probably in its entirety doesn't weigh much more than a ton.&nbsp; It is not bigger than a really big crocodilian, and owing to body plan does not have as large or as heavy of a tail.&nbsp; The damage these attacks are doing are already quite sufficient to kill or maim humans.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm quite aware that Smaug can smash rocks with his tail and so can these beasts - see the Batter special attack.&nbsp; The bigger dragons on this table with the giant tails you are imagining do more than sufficient damage to smash 1e soldiery into jelly.I don't think you are really conscious of how much sheer number inflation D&amp;D has undergone over the years.&nbsp; I encourage you to read some of the EnCyclopedia articles and see how number inflation has tracked across editions.&nbsp;&nbsp; Finally, from a gameplay standpoint, these dragons are for the most part doing quite enough damage as it is.&nbsp; I encourage you to make a party of 6 1e AD&amp;D characters on a 45000 XP budget per PC, 4d6 for stats drop the lowest in order, provision them with Appendix P type equipment, and run them against a 'mere' 7HD adult black dragon in a scenario where the black has emerged from a pool of water about 7&quot; from them - possibly with surprise.&nbsp; I think you'll find that it's already more than challenging without increasing damage.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7487930, member: 4937"] I can't agree from any perspective on the matter. First, I've done some theory crafting and the physical damage with the possible exception of the bite is very solid. The current design hits or passes the expected physical damage of the 1e RAW at age category 5 and then just keeps going, massively exceeding the 1e RAW and obviating the need for the x2 attack rate suggest by some 1e revisions. Secondly, from the stand point of verisimilitude to setting, I still can't agree. These dragons are not as big as you are imagining them or as later editions made them. They don't hit the RAW 1e size standard until Venerable (age category 7) and even that size is smaller than the size implied by later editions. They are I think still pretty big if you were to meet one face to face, but only a few of the bigger ones are typical movie dragon size and none of them are as big as Peter "I never saw a vertical scale I didn't think needed increasing" Jackson's movie Smaug. They are much closer to Skyrim size, and maybe a little smaller. For example, an adult black is only 21' long and probably in its entirety doesn't weigh much more than a ton. It is not bigger than a really big crocodilian, and owing to body plan does not have as large or as heavy of a tail. The damage these attacks are doing are already quite sufficient to kill or maim humans. I'm quite aware that Smaug can smash rocks with his tail and so can these beasts - see the Batter special attack. The bigger dragons on this table with the giant tails you are imagining do more than sufficient damage to smash 1e soldiery into jelly. I don't think you are really conscious of how much sheer number inflation D&D has undergone over the years. I encourage you to read some of the EnCyclopedia articles and see how number inflation has tracked across editions. Finally, from a gameplay standpoint, these dragons are for the most part doing quite enough damage as it is. I encourage you to make a party of 6 1e AD&D characters on a 45000 XP budget per PC, 4d6 for stats drop the lowest in order, provision them with Appendix P type equipment, and run them against a 'mere' 7HD adult black dragon in a scenario where the black has emerged from a pool of water about 7" from them - possibly with surprise. I think you'll find that it's already more than challenging without increasing damage. [/QUOTE]

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