Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7488551" data-attributes="member: 4937">I think in general that's correct outside of the first round.&nbsp; In the first round, the party is for likely good reasons going to be in some sort of marching order and close formation.&nbsp; Seeing a dragon, as much as possible they are going to want to spread out enough to avoid the whole party getting caught in a breath weapon, which against any breath weapon but that of a green you can probably manage.&nbsp;&nbsp; A green on the other hand will target an adjacent 'square' and let the cloud billow all around it since it doesn't mind being in its own 'detonation'.&nbsp; You mention playing with just 2-3 players.&nbsp; I have 6 players in my current group (and turned some away at one point), and in high school we often had 8 or more players.&nbsp; I recognize that 2-3 players is very typical, but it's not the assumption that 1e AD&amp;D is built around.&nbsp; For example, I challenged the adult black dragon to a fight against 6 6th level PC's, and that will probably be a tense fight if the DM uses decent tactics to counter however the player tries to optimize the party.&nbsp;&nbsp; And it's right in the expectation of how AD&amp;D is played, with 6th level characters going after a level VI monster (presumably on roughly the 6th level of the dungeon).&nbsp;&nbsp; But obviously 3 characters are probably screwed, and considering a level VI monster can show up as early as 4th level, obviously 3 level 4's are not meant to go up against a level VI at all.The notion of restricted spaces like corridors and caves is also built into the assumptions of 1e AD&amp;D.&nbsp; The assumption is that often the party will have to approach the dragon in a narrow corridor leading to the dragon's lair, and the dragon will be able to employ its breath weapon to great effect in those confines.&nbsp;&nbsp; Obviously, in situations where the terrain favors the party, they have an advantage, but with a dragon that's not always clear.&nbsp; A party of 6 fighters in full plate, double specialized in the two-handed sword, slice and dice a level VI dragon in close quarters, but encounter hardship if they face the dragon on an open plain with a clear sky.3e went down that path and on the whole the experiment was a failure.&nbsp;&nbsp; In 1e with its fixed saving throws, most of the time there is simply no need for it.&nbsp; You are double dipping to both increase the cost of failing a saving throw and also increasing the odds of failing the saving throw.&nbsp;&nbsp; That's the problem that 3e designs ran into - the more it mattered if you failed a save, the harder it was to make the saving throw.&nbsp;&nbsp; I mean, I've actually moved 3e quite strongly away from that design choice as a result of play experience, and 3e at least has much easier access to increasing bonuses to the saving throws.&nbsp;&nbsp; Why would I want to import into 1e something that I know from experience harms play?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7488551, member: 4937"] I think in general that's correct outside of the first round. In the first round, the party is for likely good reasons going to be in some sort of marching order and close formation. Seeing a dragon, as much as possible they are going to want to spread out enough to avoid the whole party getting caught in a breath weapon, which against any breath weapon but that of a green you can probably manage. A green on the other hand will target an adjacent 'square' and let the cloud billow all around it since it doesn't mind being in its own 'detonation'. You mention playing with just 2-3 players. I have 6 players in my current group (and turned some away at one point), and in high school we often had 8 or more players. I recognize that 2-3 players is very typical, but it's not the assumption that 1e AD&D is built around. For example, I challenged the adult black dragon to a fight against 6 6th level PC's, and that will probably be a tense fight if the DM uses decent tactics to counter however the player tries to optimize the party. And it's right in the expectation of how AD&D is played, with 6th level characters going after a level VI monster (presumably on roughly the 6th level of the dungeon). But obviously 3 characters are probably screwed, and considering a level VI monster can show up as early as 4th level, obviously 3 level 4's are not meant to go up against a level VI at all. The notion of restricted spaces like corridors and caves is also built into the assumptions of 1e AD&D. The assumption is that often the party will have to approach the dragon in a narrow corridor leading to the dragon's lair, and the dragon will be able to employ its breath weapon to great effect in those confines. Obviously, in situations where the terrain favors the party, they have an advantage, but with a dragon that's not always clear. A party of 6 fighters in full plate, double specialized in the two-handed sword, slice and dice a level VI dragon in close quarters, but encounter hardship if they face the dragon on an open plain with a clear sky. 3e went down that path and on the whole the experiment was a failure. In 1e with its fixed saving throws, most of the time there is simply no need for it. You are double dipping to both increase the cost of failing a saving throw and also increasing the odds of failing the saving throw. That's the problem that 3e designs ran into - the more it mattered if you failed a save, the harder it was to make the saving throw. I mean, I've actually moved 3e quite strongly away from that design choice as a result of play experience, and 3e at least has much easier access to increasing bonuses to the saving throws. Why would I want to import into 1e something that I know from experience harms play? [/QUOTE]

Verification