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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kerrick" data-source="post: 4467160" data-attributes="member: 4722">Wow, who pissed in your Wheaties? Seriously.Let's see...They get 6+Int skill points and a list of 32 skills (counting 9 Knowledge skills), which is nearly as good as the rogue, and they can serve as a rogue in a pinch; They have a Medium BAB and a semi-decent selection of weapons (better than the cleric), but a poor armor selection (I must admit at this point that I thought they could wear medium armor, but that's easily fixed), BUT they can cast spells in armor without penalty;They get Knowledge-based abilities;They get a decent spell selection (though heavily weighted toward enchantments and illusions).How many bards have you played/seen played? I don't see why a bard, properly played, can't hold his own in a party - he's got plenty of skills and songs and spells to buff his allies (though they could use a bit more in this regard). He can fight as well as a rogue, though he lacks the rogue's sneak attack, which makes him a lousy striker. So yes, we agree that his combat ability is sub-par, but it's nothing that a few levels in fighter, rogue, Duelist, or even barbarian can't fix.Since I don't know what vigor does (it's not core), I can't really comment.Aha, a valid point - and you were even halfway civil. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I think I'll swap that with Song of Freedom, since break enchantment is a L6 spell (which they get at L16), and give it a +1 bonus/5 points over the DC. So, a L12 bard making a DC 36 check would be about DC 24 for the counterspell. I can see why they used Perform DC = caster level check DC, but that version is utterly broken since bards can pump their DCs sky-high. I'm really not sure what to do here."Courage" implies bravery in the face of fear; it has little to do with being more effective at attacking and dealing damage. And besides, I just moved the attack/damage bonus (which is doubled, BTW) to the next higher song at L8. Inspire Heroics is pretty hefty, which is why I moved it to L20. If I'd kept it at L14, how could I top that and keep some semblance of balance? Inspire Valor is pretty weak, yes. I wasn't too happy with the way the battlesong tree turned out overall, but I couldn't think of anything better. Maybe I could do a stacking system whereby each higher song has x effect AND all the effects of the songs below it in the tree...</blockquote>

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