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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Greg K" data-source="post: 3156943" data-attributes="member: 5038">[Edit: Originally, as I posted later in this thread, my original plan several months ago was to use the bard list. However, when I went to check the bard list last night, I accidently misread the spells known as spells per day and didn't realize it.  Therefore, I decided to go with a progression using 3.0 multiclassing at first level using cleric or druid.  however, after reading smootrk's post, I went back and reread the bard spell list and saw my mistake.  So, I'm back to bard progression.]I could definitely use some help in balancing this ideaI have never been satisfied with the idea that paladins and rangers have to wait several levels before gaining spells.  If a class gains spells, I think it should either receive spells at first level or the class should be a PrC.  Now, I am aware that Unearthed Arcana has prestige classes for both the Paladin and Ranger. However, I want to keep the Paladin and Ranger as base classes and have wanted for a long time to give them an improved spell progress so that they start gaining spells at first level and use their class level as caster level.  The ideaThe Paladin and Ranger classes would use the Bard progression.  This of course would mean reassigning spell levels and probably adding in new spells.The TradeFor Paladins, I am considering the removal of Detect Evil, Lay hands, and Cure Disease as they duplicate spells and the paladin would be receiving spells earlier and more of them.  I would also remove the mount.  For Rangers, I want to remove the Animal Companion.Here is a comparison of the variant Paladin and Ranger compared to the Bard and Myrmidon(from AEG).Class________Bard_________ Myrmidon(AEG)__Paladin_____RangerBAB________  Medium_______Medium______   Good______GoodArmor_____-  Light _________Medium______ Heavy______Lighthd________   d6 ___________d8___________d10_________d8   Skill points__ 6/level________2/level________2/level______6/levelSaves_____  2/good________1/good _______1/good______2/goodabilities __ 1.  BaMusic_____ Bonus Feats____Aura Courage_ Favored Enemy_________ 2. BaKnowledge______ - ________Divine Grace_ _Track_________3.Spontaneous Magic__ - ________Divine Health__ Wild Empathy____________ - _______________ - _______ Turn Undead__Combat Style____________ -________________ - ________Smite Evil_____Endurance____________ - _______________ - ___________ -__________Woodland Stride____________ _ _______________ - ___________ -___________Swift Tracker____________ - _______________ - ___________ -___________Evasion____________ - _______________ - ___________ -___________Camoflauge____________ - _______________ - ___________ -___________Hide in Plain SightDoes  the Ranger still have too much even with removal of the Animal Companion? At first glance I think so, but then many of the class abilities are very specialized to outdoors and non combat situations. Is the Paladin balanced depsite retaining the Good BAB, Heavy Armor and d10hd?Again, any help on balancing both of these classes with the following new spell progression would be helpful.  Thank you ahead of time for any help.</blockquote>

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