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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7479053" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>The Revised Ranger is just as alive at my table as it was two months ago. Just because they are saying they aren't going to print it in a book doesn't mean it is dead. </p><p></p><p>And, I'm curious why you feel it is overpowered, and let me be more specific in that question, what in the Revised Beastmaster rules is overpowered enough that you can't port them into the PHB Ranger chasis? </p><p></p><p>I ran for a Revised Beastmaster for two years, the only minor complaint I might have had as a GM was that the wolf had a lot of Hp... but I think that came about after I buffed it signifigantly when the Tiefling Ranger ended up making a deal that slotted her into the Hierarchy of Hell and got a massive boost herself. </p><p></p><p>And even after I ended up doing what I could to represent her as an Avatar of an Archdevil, I still didn't feel like she was more powerful than the other members of the party, specifically the Swashbuckler Rogue Changeling who... he had some magic items but nothing crazy that I can remember until the very end when he got the legendary sword. </p><p></p><p>I'll give people that multi-classing with the Revised Ranger is a bit rough, and I agree that WoTC likely would have neutered it before print, just like they did with many of the Subclasses in Xanathar's guide, but my own experiences and the examples of play I've seen and heard about don't show that the Revised Ranger actually needs to be toned down all that much. </p><p></p><p>And these spells could be printed without rewriting the PHB ranger, but if they ever were, it would be a huge flag to the community indicating that the Beastmaster needs fixed, because these spells address the concerns of the Beastmaster almost one for one in terms of what they are trying to do. And, if WoTC indicates the ranger needs fixed, inevitably, people are going to ask why they didn't just go ahead with the Revised Ranger instead.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not disagreeing (and yes, I feel like if you choose to be a "beast master" your companion should be useful quite often, and combat is a large portion of the game so being viable in combat is almost a prereq for it), but let us look at where those changes to Hunting Party lead us. </p><p></p><p>Essentially, the companion is allowed to act independently, as long as the Beast Master ranger devotes one spell slot and one spell known to that task every long rest. Is it fair to tell a player, "for choosing this sub-class, subtract one 1st level spell slot from your list and you will know one less spell than you would otherwise know" because this is essentially the cost you are forcing onto the concept to make it work as people want it to. </p><p></p><p>You don't want to give people things for free, but subclasses are already built in with choice. The price of choosing a Beastmaster is that you are not some other sort of ranger. You lose out on any other set of abilities you could have. Therefore, I don't think it is really fair to further penalize a character's resources, just because the designers decided not to go through with the fix they had been working on for the design problems they created. </p><p></p><p>Personally, I think it is more fruitful to simply port over the Revised Beastmaster rules, or rewrite the PHB Beastmaster rules instead of adding spells that create the fixes that are requested. Because spells should be a bonus, "You get to do this cool thing you couldn't do before" they should not be "You should be able to do this thing, but you can't so we're charging you a spell to do it anyways."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7479053, member: 6801228"] The Revised Ranger is just as alive at my table as it was two months ago. Just because they are saying they aren't going to print it in a book doesn't mean it is dead. And, I'm curious why you feel it is overpowered, and let me be more specific in that question, what in the Revised Beastmaster rules is overpowered enough that you can't port them into the PHB Ranger chasis? I ran for a Revised Beastmaster for two years, the only minor complaint I might have had as a GM was that the wolf had a lot of Hp... but I think that came about after I buffed it signifigantly when the Tiefling Ranger ended up making a deal that slotted her into the Hierarchy of Hell and got a massive boost herself. And even after I ended up doing what I could to represent her as an Avatar of an Archdevil, I still didn't feel like she was more powerful than the other members of the party, specifically the Swashbuckler Rogue Changeling who... he had some magic items but nothing crazy that I can remember until the very end when he got the legendary sword. I'll give people that multi-classing with the Revised Ranger is a bit rough, and I agree that WoTC likely would have neutered it before print, just like they did with many of the Subclasses in Xanathar's guide, but my own experiences and the examples of play I've seen and heard about don't show that the Revised Ranger actually needs to be toned down all that much. And these spells could be printed without rewriting the PHB ranger, but if they ever were, it would be a huge flag to the community indicating that the Beastmaster needs fixed, because these spells address the concerns of the Beastmaster almost one for one in terms of what they are trying to do. And, if WoTC indicates the ranger needs fixed, inevitably, people are going to ask why they didn't just go ahead with the Revised Ranger instead. I'm not disagreeing (and yes, I feel like if you choose to be a "beast master" your companion should be useful quite often, and combat is a large portion of the game so being viable in combat is almost a prereq for it), but let us look at where those changes to Hunting Party lead us. Essentially, the companion is allowed to act independently, as long as the Beast Master ranger devotes one spell slot and one spell known to that task every long rest. Is it fair to tell a player, "for choosing this sub-class, subtract one 1st level spell slot from your list and you will know one less spell than you would otherwise know" because this is essentially the cost you are forcing onto the concept to make it work as people want it to. You don't want to give people things for free, but subclasses are already built in with choice. The price of choosing a Beastmaster is that you are not some other sort of ranger. You lose out on any other set of abilities you could have. Therefore, I don't think it is really fair to further penalize a character's resources, just because the designers decided not to go through with the fix they had been working on for the design problems they created. Personally, I think it is more fruitful to simply port over the Revised Beastmaster rules, or rewrite the PHB Beastmaster rules instead of adding spells that create the fixes that are requested. Because spells should be a bonus, "You get to do this cool thing you couldn't do before" they should not be "You should be able to do this thing, but you can't so we're charging you a spell to do it anyways." [/QUOTE]
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