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Revised Ranger update
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7480528" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>The bonus to the skill checks is nice, but most beasts don't have skills beyond perception and stealth, and a lot of the beasts have advantage on Perception anyways. Additionally, any ability that buffs skill checks for players can also be applied to the beasts... so we are talking a relatively minor difference in the roll of between +2 and +4 for the majority of the character's life. </p><p></p><p>Sure, +2 is really nice, and if given a choice between not getting it and getting it, you take the +2 every time. But getting a +2 or +3 on perception and/or stealth checks isn't worth a full subclass, and as written with none of your spells to buff it up, an animal companion is not a great boon in combat either. </p><p></p><p></p><p>My point isn't that a beast companion should be another PC in combat, but if we are going to claim the PHB Beastmaster works as intended because the companion has a lot of out of combat utility, we should recognize how easily the vast majority of that utility can be copied by other classes. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>These are good numbers to look at. </p><p></p><p>PHB Beastmaster, RAW right now. 10th level, with what I see as the standard companion, the Wolf. </p><p></p><p>Beastmaster orders wolf to attack on their turn and the wolf gets a single attack. That attack is a 2d4+6, averaging about 11 damage. Beastmaster still has a bonus action, but I'm not sure what they are going to use it for that would be useful, and even if they could add damage, it'd likely be a 1d6, netting you 14 damage. You set the standard at 20-30</p><p></p><p>11th level when you say we can bump up, the wolf gets two attack for22 or 28 average. Standard you gave is 40-50</p><p></p><p></p><p>So, as written, we are beneath your given numbers. And sure, we can add in the increased accuracy and wolf pack tactics, but few beasts are doing much better and a lot of other common choices (like the hawk and the owl) are many, many times worse in the average DPR. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Just for fun, running that as a Revised Beastmaster, assuming double dipping the ability score improvements just for damage, gets the wolf dealing 2d4+8, jumping the wolf up to 13, but allows the ranger to make an attack, and the wolf to make a reaction attack. That gets us 26 from the wolf and 1d8+5 from the ranger, average around 10, putting us at 36, higher than the fighter, but the "bump" at 11th level relies on being able to hit multiple targets as the wolf, so it is still pretty close. And that is with no long tern resources, just like the fighter. </p><p></p><p>So, DPR-wise, the revised Ranger is pretty close to the parameters you set up, while the PHB ranger falls behind by a wide margin. </p><p></p><p>And the Hunter could be easily doing 3d8+10, getting them 25 average. Right in line with the Fighter, pretty superior to the PHB Beastmaster, and lagging behind the Revised Beastmaster, but I'm cool with that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7480528, member: 6801228"] The bonus to the skill checks is nice, but most beasts don't have skills beyond perception and stealth, and a lot of the beasts have advantage on Perception anyways. Additionally, any ability that buffs skill checks for players can also be applied to the beasts... so we are talking a relatively minor difference in the roll of between +2 and +4 for the majority of the character's life. Sure, +2 is really nice, and if given a choice between not getting it and getting it, you take the +2 every time. But getting a +2 or +3 on perception and/or stealth checks isn't worth a full subclass, and as written with none of your spells to buff it up, an animal companion is not a great boon in combat either. My point isn't that a beast companion should be another PC in combat, but if we are going to claim the PHB Beastmaster works as intended because the companion has a lot of out of combat utility, we should recognize how easily the vast majority of that utility can be copied by other classes. These are good numbers to look at. PHB Beastmaster, RAW right now. 10th level, with what I see as the standard companion, the Wolf. Beastmaster orders wolf to attack on their turn and the wolf gets a single attack. That attack is a 2d4+6, averaging about 11 damage. Beastmaster still has a bonus action, but I'm not sure what they are going to use it for that would be useful, and even if they could add damage, it'd likely be a 1d6, netting you 14 damage. You set the standard at 20-30 11th level when you say we can bump up, the wolf gets two attack for22 or 28 average. Standard you gave is 40-50 So, as written, we are beneath your given numbers. And sure, we can add in the increased accuracy and wolf pack tactics, but few beasts are doing much better and a lot of other common choices (like the hawk and the owl) are many, many times worse in the average DPR. Just for fun, running that as a Revised Beastmaster, assuming double dipping the ability score improvements just for damage, gets the wolf dealing 2d4+8, jumping the wolf up to 13, but allows the ranger to make an attack, and the wolf to make a reaction attack. That gets us 26 from the wolf and 1d8+5 from the ranger, average around 10, putting us at 36, higher than the fighter, but the "bump" at 11th level relies on being able to hit multiple targets as the wolf, so it is still pretty close. And that is with no long tern resources, just like the fighter. So, DPR-wise, the revised Ranger is pretty close to the parameters you set up, while the PHB ranger falls behind by a wide margin. And the Hunter could be easily doing 3d8+10, getting them 25 average. Right in line with the Fighter, pretty superior to the PHB Beastmaster, and lagging behind the Revised Beastmaster, but I'm cool with that. [/QUOTE]
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