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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 5815982" data-attributes="member: 59082">One of the positive innovations of 4E, imo, are the tiers that delineate distinct styles of game play. But the style of 4E game play as a whole, which started PCs off as minor heroes, didn't really exploit the potential of the tier structure. What it did do was create a broader sweet-spot, but one that didn't diversify play enough and in a sense pushed away both extremes of play: it minimized off-the-farm play and made epic play inaccessible and less interesting, partially because it wasn't different enough from the already-epic-feeling 4E Heroic and Paragon play. In other words, 4E failed to accomplish what every edition has failed to accomplish: bring Epic play alive.So there are a few goals to this rumination on revisioning the tiers: which can be essentialized by the following design goal: Make play possible from picking up grandpa's rusty sword to fight the goblins attacking the farm all the way to cosmic wars between gods and the creation of worlds. I would add the caveat, of course, that the sweet-spot and core default is the traditional D&D game: the young adventurer with rudimentary training off to make his or her name as a hero, and then becoming that hero and facing greater challenges. I don't want to lose that core focus, but I would like to both expand it on both ends and make each phase of the game distinctly interesting and unique.A bit more on this spectrum. Many have complained that 4E 1st level characters are like 1E 3-5th level characters; they're already minor heroes, already pretty tough, and it is nigh impossible to play an "off the farm" or even "grim-and-gritty" game without serious modifications. So the first goal would be to lower the power level of 1st level characters; perhaps not to the point of 1E (who wants to play a magic-user with d4 HP and only one spell per day again? Don't you remember how irritating it was to cast your puny magic missile and then retreat behind the fighter to thwack anyone that gets by with your quarterstaff?). So let's make 1st level characters playable but vulnerable: something between 1E and 4E (and thus, I suppose, closer to 3.5).On the other side of the spectrum we have the eternal problem (and even Holy Grail of D&D game design) of epic play. Probably the main reason that epic tier has been woefully neglected - in all editions but especially in 4E - is a variant of the law of diminishing returns; it is similar to the idea that the more specific a supplement is, the less people will buy it (e.g. The Player's Handbook has more widespread appeal than Charlemagne's Paladins Campaign Sourcebook). And of course there is the matter of simply getting to epic tier; unless one plays in a weekly game and leveling up occurs every other session or so, a group won't see epic tier for two or three years (my group plays an inconsistent every-other-week schedule with advancement every 3-4 sessions or so, and is only at 15th level after two and a half years).So the goal here, again, is to expand play from 4E's "minor hero to superhero" sweet-spot so that we get the entire spectrum of play, from off-the-farm rubes to demigods challenging Asmodeus in Nessus (and perhaps even beyond, but more on that in a moment).First of all, I would suggest expanding the level structure to a full fifty levels, but with an open-ended cap for possible further play into different levels of godhood. With a flatter power curve, this becomes more do-able; this is what I have in mind:Let's explore these in a bit more depth:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-10: Adventurer Tier - "classic" or old school D&D, centered on a small region, town, or adventuring wilderness. This would involve dungeoncrawls, skirmishes with humanoids, and your typical adventures. A 1st level character would effectively be an off-the-farm teenager with only rudimentary skills (e.g. a blacksmith's son who played around with swords and received basic training from his father, or a neophyte cleric or an apprentice wizard). The first few levels would be developing skills so that, by mid-tier, one is a seasoned veteran (thus your garden variety town guardsman or soldier would be low-to-mid tier, not 1st level). To put it another way, and in craft guild terms, the first five levels would be more like an apprentice sub-tier, with the rest of the tier being akin to a journeyman.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-20: Heroic Tier - similar to 4E's Heroic Tier or AD&D's classic sweet-spot of levels 5-12ish. PCs become true (albeit minor) heroes; a larger region or nation is the focus, major quests, first forays into the Underdark, etc. In craft guild terms, the journeyman has become an expert in their craft.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">21-30: Paragon Tier - PCs become powers of the land, recognizable heroes. Adventures in the Underdark and into the planes; opponents become powerful undead, dragons, hordes of monsters, etc. PCs may become rulers or, at least, known heroes of the land. In craft guild terms, the expert has become a master in the field.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">31-40: Epic Tier - PCs become movers and shakers, possibly rulers of nations. Opponents become major/unique monsters - demon lords, ancient dragons, archliches, the Tarrasque, etc, as well as "end of the world" scenarios. The master of a craft has become a legend - one of the greatest in their field in known history.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">41-50: Immortal/Demigod Tier - At this point the superheroic epic character has transcended the normal limits of mortal development. It could be that in order to gain this tier (that is, to advance beyond 40th level) some kind of quest for the Elixir of Life must occur, or the character must be "immortalized" by a greater deity. Game-play would be truly cosmic: wars between gods and powerful extra-planar beings.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">51+: Immortal/True Gods - It is hard to imagine viable game-play beyond demigodhood, but it is possible. The character would essentially be a god in his or her own right. The difference between a true god and a demigod, in this regard, is that the former has worshipers and domains of power, whereas a demigod may be in service of a greater power, more of a patron and exemplar to mortals than a focus of worship. Thus game-play would be more of a meta-game, the development of a religion, tending the flock, etc, perhaps even to the point of world-creation or even reality creation. One could say that at the hypothetical "100th level" a being transcends even greater godhood and becomes a creator being in their own right and may leave this reality to create another one...(and thus becomes a DM!).</li> </ul>You might be asking a question at this point: If it is hard to get to Epic tier in 4E (21st level), how is anyone ever going to get to 41st level, let alone 51st and beyond? This is where we get into modular rules for 5E, and different approaches to levels and advancement as a whole. By way of both summarizing key points above and developing them further, I would suggest the following:Flatten the power curve. By expanding the 30 levels of 4E to 50 levels, with two "new" tiers on either end, it allows for a slower build-up and advancement.Keep and strengthen a new character development at each new tier. At 11th, 21st, 31st, 41st, and 51st, the PC choosing a new option similar to 4E's paragon paths and epic destinies. Perhaps at 11th level it could be a heroic talent - a heroic trait or quality that the PC can draw from (e.g. "luck of the gods" or special racial traits), sort of like a more powerful, interesting, and perhaps campaign-specific feat. At 21st it would be a paragon path, at 31st an epic destiny, and at 41st it would be some kind of divine trait, and at 51st it would be a sphere of influence, with new spheres every ten levels. So like so:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Heroic - Heroic Talent</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Paragon - Paragon Path</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Epic - Epic Destiny</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Immortal/Demigod - Divine Trait</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Immortal/True God - Sphere of Influence</li> </ul>A mechanism for quick advancement should be offered, at least as a visible modular option. This could be a variable advancement rate, depending upon the campaign and tier. For instance, if a group wants a 4E-style campaign, they could burn through Adventurer tier at a quick pace (maybe a level every 1-2 sessions) and then slow down for Heroic and Paragon (a level every 4-5 sessions). Also, options for starting at higher tiers would be there (this is always an option, but it would be "legitimized" by being an official modular option).What is "Core?" I would suggest that the starter set only include the so-called apprentice sub-tier (levels 1-5), and the core rulebooks include only the first three tiers, Adventurer, Heroic, and Paragon (levels 1-30), with Epic and Immortal being treated as a modular options. This would allow retention of the classic D&D feel and the flattened power curve that they seem to be going for in D&D Next. The Epic Handbook and Immortal Handbook could follow the core game a year or two later and could be embraced by those wanting flavors of Exalted or The Matrix, or ignored by those wanting a more classic D&D feel.So again, in summary: expand the levels and developmental spectrum, flatten the power curve, and make each tier more distinctive, and thus more interesting.</blockquote>

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