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Revisiting Mearls and Co
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<blockquote data-quote="Capricia" data-source="post: 6336876" data-attributes="member: 6777135"><p><a href="http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120430" target="_blank">http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120430</a></p><p></p><p>This right here. The Fighter design goals.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>From the basic rules, it looks as though the cleric is going to be a better fighter. With the leaked phb, the ranger and paladin can clearly outfight the fighter as long as they have spells. The barbarian can outfight him as long as he can rage. The wizard can simply end an encounter with the right spell. The Fighter's schtick is instead "Can outfight any class when they are absolutely deprived of their resources".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Mission accomplished. This fighter is absolutely mundane in every way.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There aren't any rules for tearing off arms, and an unarmed fighter is severely crippled since they'd be using such low damage dice and unaided by their fighting style. A level 8 fighter would be absolutely annihilated by the level 8 dragon in the starter set. A level 20 fighter would be easily taken out by a group of archers because of bounded accuracy. The skill, relying on multiple attacks that always do the same damage, aren't really overwhelming.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Only...no. An extra attack at level 11 is really all the fighter has to set himself apart from the others. The others have 5th level spellcasting with a slew of swift action spells that have extremely powerful and versatile effects. The best archer is a ranger who casts Swift Quiver. The best Jouster is a Paladin who uses any of the wide number of Smite spells at the moment of impact. The best swordmaster might be a fighter...if it was an eldritch knight.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The fighter has one good save and then strength. Indomitable is nigh worthless against effects targeting his weak save. The fighter can wear heavy armor but so can the Cleric. The fighter gets 1 extra hp per level compared to the vast majority of classes. That's not enough of a distinction to make "many monster's attacks powerless".</p><p></p><p></p><p>Waves of orcs. A high level fighter gets 3 attacks a round, 6 if he novas. Even at high level, each attack is going to do something like 2d6+5 damage, which is going to be enough to finish off an orc slightly more than half the time. Meanwhile, a level 5 wizard can reliably wipe them out with a fireball. Or any number of the other hundreds of spells they have access to.</p><p></p><p>The fighter does not have enough hp to absorb the wizard's punishment, Indomitable does not work at throwing off the effects, and many spells are going to simply take the fighter out of the fight with trivial ease. Quite simply, the fighter just stops getting class features at level 9 with Indomitable. The extra attacks don't keep up at all with the bloated hp of higher level monsters, meaning the fighter actually does less damage relative to encounters as they level up. Even a subclass like the Battle Master is going to get its 3 best maneuvers at level 3, and each new one they get access to are going to be the ones they really didn't want in the first place.</p><p></p><p>So yeah, I'd love to hear Mearls try to defend how Next lived up to these goals.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Capricia, post: 6336876, member: 6777135"] [URL]http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120430[/URL] This right here. The Fighter design goals. From the basic rules, it looks as though the cleric is going to be a better fighter. With the leaked phb, the ranger and paladin can clearly outfight the fighter as long as they have spells. The barbarian can outfight him as long as he can rage. The wizard can simply end an encounter with the right spell. The Fighter's schtick is instead "Can outfight any class when they are absolutely deprived of their resources". Mission accomplished. This fighter is absolutely mundane in every way. There aren't any rules for tearing off arms, and an unarmed fighter is severely crippled since they'd be using such low damage dice and unaided by their fighting style. A level 8 fighter would be absolutely annihilated by the level 8 dragon in the starter set. A level 20 fighter would be easily taken out by a group of archers because of bounded accuracy. The skill, relying on multiple attacks that always do the same damage, aren't really overwhelming. Only...no. An extra attack at level 11 is really all the fighter has to set himself apart from the others. The others have 5th level spellcasting with a slew of swift action spells that have extremely powerful and versatile effects. The best archer is a ranger who casts Swift Quiver. The best Jouster is a Paladin who uses any of the wide number of Smite spells at the moment of impact. The best swordmaster might be a fighter...if it was an eldritch knight. The fighter has one good save and then strength. Indomitable is nigh worthless against effects targeting his weak save. The fighter can wear heavy armor but so can the Cleric. The fighter gets 1 extra hp per level compared to the vast majority of classes. That's not enough of a distinction to make "many monster's attacks powerless". Waves of orcs. A high level fighter gets 3 attacks a round, 6 if he novas. Even at high level, each attack is going to do something like 2d6+5 damage, which is going to be enough to finish off an orc slightly more than half the time. Meanwhile, a level 5 wizard can reliably wipe them out with a fireball. Or any number of the other hundreds of spells they have access to. The fighter does not have enough hp to absorb the wizard's punishment, Indomitable does not work at throwing off the effects, and many spells are going to simply take the fighter out of the fight with trivial ease. Quite simply, the fighter just stops getting class features at level 9 with Indomitable. The extra attacks don't keep up at all with the bloated hp of higher level monsters, meaning the fighter actually does less damage relative to encounters as they level up. Even a subclass like the Battle Master is going to get its 3 best maneuvers at level 3, and each new one they get access to are going to be the ones they really didn't want in the first place. So yeah, I'd love to hear Mearls try to defend how Next lived up to these goals. [/QUOTE]
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