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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IceBear" data-source="post: 122532" data-attributes="member: 1118">See, this is where I'm getting confused.  I would allow chances to detect the ice worm BEFORE the surprise round, but none afterwards.  Yes, the worm is probably making noise during its movement, but it's too late now - it's the surprise round.Situation #1:  PCs are walking through the woods and fail to notice the elven archers hiding in the trees.  The elven archers wait for the PCs to move into optimial position and fire their bows making loud twangs as they do (the Surprise round).  Are you saying that you would then allow the PCs to make listen checks to avoid being surprised? If so you're being far more generous than the rules state.  The PCs are already surprised - the first round of combat started the moment the elves attacked and too bad for them they were flat footed.  Situation #2:  A rogue is hiding behing a barrel in a ally. The PC fails to spot him.  As the PC walks past, the rogue stands up (he is obviously easier to see now) and attacks.  Too bad for the PC, it's the surprise round and he can't retroactively reverse that by detecting the rogue during his attack.Please understand, I'm not a bloodthirsty DM, and if I do feel that the PCs are in a dire situation I might allow an extra dice roll to help them out, but in the case of an ice worm I'm not just going to give them a benefit because if *I* put it in my game then *I* expect them to survive it (again, if something happened just before that encounter that would make it hard for the PCs I might allow some extra help).IceBear</blockquote>

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