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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IceBear" data-source="post: 124147" data-attributes="member: 1118">Mal,You obviously haven't read all my posts on this <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />What I was talking about was not specifically the ice worm situation so let's forget it for a second.First, according to the rules you get spot and listen checks to notice your opponent.  If you fail to notice them before they act you are surprised.  If the attacking opponent decided to take a partial charge as his action (a orc charging out from behind the tree you just past), I wouldn't allow a Listen check because the surprise round has already started.  If the attacking opponent decided to move up behind you and then attack, I would allow a Listen check to notice it moving closer because the surprise round hasn't started yet until it attacks.In the case of the ice worm, I don't have it 100% of the time get a surprise attack.  I allow the PCs a chance to detect it's presence via Listen checks or Wilderness Lore (or even spot if the conditions were right).  I also place the monster on the map, mentally, and I have the PCs move across the map (I do this from time to time when there is nothing there just too keep them guessing).  If a PC passes directly over the ice worm without noticing it, then the worm moves up to attack.  Now...if the worm can make a partial charge while burrowing, then I would consider that the surprise round.  If you can't make a partial charge when burrowing, then I would allow a Listen check to allow the PCs to detect it.Now, if the PCs don't pass anywhere near the spot that the ice worm is on the map I think try to think like the worm and decide what it would do.  It's an ambush hunter so it doesn't like direct confrontation when it's prey is alerted, so in most cases I decide that it doesn't attack and the party passes by the encounter without ever knowing it.  If I decide that the worm is extremely hungry or agitated, then I have the worm rush to attack and thus allowing more Listen and Spot checks to detect it.Honestly, I don't think I'm being a bad DM here or making particularly bad judgement calls on how to handle this.  The two things on this thread that I have issues with are allowing a Listen check to avoid surprise once the surprise round has started (as per above example) and using an opposed Hide vs Spot to notice the signs that something is in another room or 20ft under ground.  I don't disagree that there aren't signs, I just don't think that using the creature's Hide roll is a good way of determining the DC.  I would look at the monster's intelligence, wisdom, and hide skill then base the DC to spot the sign on those factors and the environment (or allow a Wilderness Lore check if applicable).IceBear</blockquote>

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