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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IceBear" data-source="post: 125085" data-attributes="member: 1118">Yeah, but the +20 circumstance modifier for spotting invisible creatures assumes a line of sight to the creature (so you could see the swirling of the air, footprints in the dust, etc). At this point I'm tired of arguing.  You would use the Hide skill and assign a modifier of your determination for the situation.  Me, I would just assign a number based on my determination of the situation including how good the creature is at hiding and have the PCs try to spot - so we're both getting to the same result.It was suggested by someone from WotC to use the AC modifier for cover as a circumstance modifier to spot.  100% cover has a dash for the modifier as it's impossible to hit someone with 100% cover.  Likewise I'd rule it's impossible to Spot someone (but not impossible to spot other signs of their presence).As to the person that said Spot is not just vision, where are you getting that from.  Does it list bonuses to spot due to strong smells?  Penalties to spot for being upwind?  Spot is the ability to see something of importance.  Scent is used for detection by smell, and Listen for detection by sound.IceBear</blockquote>