Rifle butts and pistol whips

[Kusuf ibn Zaid]

Is someone who is armed with a rifle or pistol considered armed (for the purposes of taking an AoO) solely because a rifle butt and a pistol whip are considered simple melee weapons?

 

[Bismark]

Is someone who is armed with a rifle or pistol considered armed (for the purposes of taking an AoO) solely because a rifle butt and a pistol whip are considered simple melee weapons?

I don't know if that's how it's meant, but that's how we played it.

 

[Kusuf ibn Zaid]

I don't know if that's how it's meant, but that's how we played it.

I just find it a little bit odd that the guy with the Colt .45 is constantly pistol whipping people that he would just rather shoot, simply because his opponents are running around like ninnies.

 

[takyris]

The official ruling by Charles Ryan is that as long as you have a gun in your hand, you threaten the squares around you with pistol-whips.

I personally dislike this ruling. It came directly after a quite sensical ruling that said "For disarming purposes, you treat a handgun as a melee weapon if they've just used it as such, and as a ranged weapon if they've just used it to shoot." I don't see why guns shouldn't be treated the same way for AoO purposes. Doing a bunch of shooting? You probably don't have time to pistol-whip somebody who runs past you. Pistol-whipping like nobody's business? You probably have a shot at whacking somebody one more time if they do something dumb to let their guard down.

The "always threatening" thing is much easier, though, because then it's always on, and you never have to worry about "Well, I wasn't shooting, but I was doing something else, so I probably don't threaten with it, since I shot somebody four rounds ago and was planning to shoot somebody next round" worries.

The house rule my group uses is that you can, as a free action, switch your gun from "Shoot" mode to "Pistol Whip" mode -- but you can only do it once per round (like positioning a Tower Shield, if I recall correctly):

Round One: Draws gun, fires gun, switches to pistol-whip mode.
Round 1.5: Somebody runs by, he AoOs them.
Round Two: Switches gun back to shoot mode and fires.
Round 2.5: Somebody runs by, he doesn't have a chance to AoO because he just barely got the gun back into position to shoot, and it's still extended as though for shooting.

That is, however, JUST a house rule. The official rule is that guns always threaten pistol-whipability.

 

[Ranger REG]

If you pistol-whip as an AoO, you must first have Combat Reflexes to make multiple AoOs (albeit you can make only one AoO per opponent).

As for the Disarm rules, I assume that if the PC pistol-whips ON HIS TURN (as an attack action), then until his next turn, it is treated as a melee weapon. AoO (basically a reaction) doesn't count.

It's the same with two-weapon fighting. On his turn, a PC can make that extra off-hand attacks but applies the two-weapon fighting penalties, but if his opponent move past him or let her guard down, he (the PC) can make an AoO with a normal attack (no penalty).

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If you pistol-whip as an AoO, you must first have Combat Reflexes to make multiple AoOs (albeit you can make only one AoO per opponent).

As for the Disarm rules, I assume that if the PC pistol-whips ON HIS TURN (as an attack action), then until his next turn, it is treated as a melee weapon. AoO (basically a reaction) doesn't count.

It's the same with two-weapon fighting. On his turn, a PC can make that extra off-hand attacks but applies the two-weapon fighting penalties, but if his opponent move past him or let her guard down, he (the PC) can make an AoO with a normal attack (no penalty).

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe you are wrong. Similar to the Expertise or Power Attack Penalty, the Two Weapon Fighting Penalty applies to all attacks, as far as I know. This includes Attack of Oppertunities you might take.

The standard rule (as proposed by James Ryan) would make it possible that two Pistolshooters (I don`t say Gunslingers, because it wouldn`t work with their close combat shot ability) would shot at each other and at the sime time pistol whip each other. This seems quite ridicilous...

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Plane Sailing]

The standard rule (as proposed by James Ryan) would make it possible that two Pistolshooters (I don`t say Gunslingers, because it wouldn`t work with their close combat shot ability) would shot at each other and at the sime time pistol whip each other. This seems quite ridicilous...

ROFLMAO!

 

[Ranger REG]

I believe you are wrong. Similar to the Expertise or Power Attack Penalty, the Two Weapon Fighting Penalty applies to all attacks, as far as I know. This includes Attack of Oppertunities you might take.

AFAIC, it's all the attacks you make ON YOUR TURN.

The standard rule (as proposed by James Ryan) would make it possible that two Pistolshooters (I don`t say Gunslingers, because it wouldn`t work with their close combat shot ability) would shot at each other and at the sime time pistol whip each other. This seems quite ridicilous...

Ridiculous but quite possible.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

AFAIC, it's all the attacks you make ON YOUR TURN.

Well, why not simply check it, I wondered and looked it up (and this allows for fine nitpicking, as I figured out ):
D20 Modern Core Rulebook; p.86, Power Attack: [...] The penalty on attacks and bonus to damages applies until your next action.

D20 Modern Core Rulebook; p.137, Fighting Defensively: -4 penalty on all attacks in a round and +2 dodge bonus to Defense in the same round.
This seems to mean that any AOOs that you take during the same round get the penalty, but when the new round starts, you no longer get the penalty but also lose the Dodge Bonus, unless you interpret it as "lasting" a round (so on your next action the bonus and penalties would go away).

Same book; p.137/138: Attacking with Two Weapons
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. Fighting this way is very difficult, hower - you take a -6 penalty on your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty on the attacks with your off hand. [...]
There is no further indication how long this penalties actually last - so you might be right that it does not apply to your AOOs. On the other hand, it speaks from "attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty on the attack with your off-hand" - this could also apply to your AOOs, since they are certainly attacks...

For sake of simplicity, I would (and do) use the penalty until your next action route in all three cases.


Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Ranger REG]

Your Campaign, Your Rules.

But may I add ... "attacks with your primary hand" could also mean the multiple attacks you can make due to your BAB ... on your turn (assuming you did not acquiring any more of the TWF feat tree).