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Rituals take too long and creative casting is dead
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<blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 4259799" data-attributes="member: 5143"><p>Exactly why it was changed. Some examples:</p><p></p><p>3rd Edition method:</p><p>Rogue: "Perfect opportunity for me to shine, I have max ranks in Sense Motive and a good Wisdom, I have a sense for these sorts of things."</p><p>Cleric: "You might, but you realize that he could have any number of magic items enhancing his bluff, and he could have taken a couple of feats to increase his bluff skill, and even if he didn't take anything, he could just roll higher than you if he has max ranks in bluff. Then what would we learn. I'll just cast discern lies...it always works. Plus, it's no big deal, I have 30 spells prepared, it's only one of them."</p><p>Rogue: "Wait...why did I spend ranks in skills again?"</p><p></p><p>4th Edition method:</p><p>Rogue: "I don't trust this guy...he seems to be lying to us."</p><p>Cleric: "Alright, maybe we should lure him outside and corner him in an alley and see if we can get the truth out of him.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Easily solved. There are very few languages in 4e, most of them have been removed for this reason. Plus, according to the default setting, most of the world was under the control of an expansive human empire just a short while ago. Nearly everyone knows common. If they don't, then your DM put them into the game knowing full well you couldn't talk to them.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Seriously? Anyone ever cast Make Whole in combat? I know if someone tried that in our group the conversation would go something like this:</p><p></p><p>Cleric: "Your weapon broke, I'll Make Whole on my next turn to fix it for you."</p><p>Fighter: "No, thank you...Make Whole doesn't restore the magic, it's just a masterwork weapon now. If you Make Whole it, I'll have to take an AOO picking it up from the ground. I'll just pull out that +2 sword I've been carrying around as a backup. Besides, I'm almost out of hitpoints, if you don't heal me next round I'm going to drop."</p><p></p><p>Plus no sundering in 4e=no need to do it anyways.</p><p></p><p></p><p>They won't break game balance, but you shouldn't expect to see them do the same sort of thing you see in 3e. Illusionists will use their powers to damage people with illusions so real that they look like fireballs(and do real damage) or confuse enemies with duplicates of your party giving them minuses to hit. The illusions WILL have a direct effect on: hitpoints, attacks, and damage.</p><p></p><p>Conjuring wizards will have much better conjurations than they've had in the past, but they'll have to use their own actions up in order to control their conjured creatures. And they'll only be able to have 1 or 2 around at a time.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Enlarge: gone for now due to the difficulty of dealing with large PCs(tunnels that aren't large enough for them to fit down, doors not big enough, weapons suddenly too small, etc). Plus, the spell would logically boost strength. Stat boosting effects are right out.</p><p></p><p>Grease: Nothing wrong with it, per se...it is just much less useful than a spell that depletes hitpoints. When a creature has 85 hitpoints, it is better to do 20 of them in damage than it is to given them a minor chance of falling down and giving your allies +2 to hit for it being prone. Effects that just prolong combat rather than bringing it closer to an end are a no go.</p><p></p><p>Protection from Arrows: Limited use compared to Invisibility, Shield, Mirror Image which all protect against ALL attacks instead of just some. With limited space in the book, it was the one to go.</p><p></p><p>Rope Trick: It breaks campaigns in so many ways. As a DM, I'm glad to see this one go - "We're in the middle of the enemy stronghold, but we're almost out of spells...alright, let's cast Rope Trick and jump inside, we'll rest the night and continue assaulting the castle in the morning." Yeah, that's fair.</p><p></p><p></p><p>As I've discussed in other threads on this topic, "creative casting" is another word for "too much power".</p><p></p><p>It is almost always used to refer to the moment when a wizard uses a low level spell that is supposed to be a rather bad utility spell and then uses it in such a way that it ends up being more powerful than their 9th level spells.</p><p></p><p>This makes it impossible to actually balance classes or predict the difficulty of a combat. Since one group might actually try to attack the Giant with swords and fireballs while another one convinces their DM that a Create Water by the Cleric followed by an Ice Storm from the Wizard automatically freezes him solid in the first round.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Majoru Oakheart, post: 4259799, member: 5143"] Exactly why it was changed. Some examples: 3rd Edition method: Rogue: "Perfect opportunity for me to shine, I have max ranks in Sense Motive and a good Wisdom, I have a sense for these sorts of things." Cleric: "You might, but you realize that he could have any number of magic items enhancing his bluff, and he could have taken a couple of feats to increase his bluff skill, and even if he didn't take anything, he could just roll higher than you if he has max ranks in bluff. Then what would we learn. I'll just cast discern lies...it always works. Plus, it's no big deal, I have 30 spells prepared, it's only one of them." Rogue: "Wait...why did I spend ranks in skills again?" 4th Edition method: Rogue: "I don't trust this guy...he seems to be lying to us." Cleric: "Alright, maybe we should lure him outside and corner him in an alley and see if we can get the truth out of him. Easily solved. There are very few languages in 4e, most of them have been removed for this reason. Plus, according to the default setting, most of the world was under the control of an expansive human empire just a short while ago. Nearly everyone knows common. If they don't, then your DM put them into the game knowing full well you couldn't talk to them. Seriously? Anyone ever cast Make Whole in combat? I know if someone tried that in our group the conversation would go something like this: Cleric: "Your weapon broke, I'll Make Whole on my next turn to fix it for you." Fighter: "No, thank you...Make Whole doesn't restore the magic, it's just a masterwork weapon now. If you Make Whole it, I'll have to take an AOO picking it up from the ground. I'll just pull out that +2 sword I've been carrying around as a backup. Besides, I'm almost out of hitpoints, if you don't heal me next round I'm going to drop." Plus no sundering in 4e=no need to do it anyways. They won't break game balance, but you shouldn't expect to see them do the same sort of thing you see in 3e. Illusionists will use their powers to damage people with illusions so real that they look like fireballs(and do real damage) or confuse enemies with duplicates of your party giving them minuses to hit. The illusions WILL have a direct effect on: hitpoints, attacks, and damage. Conjuring wizards will have much better conjurations than they've had in the past, but they'll have to use their own actions up in order to control their conjured creatures. And they'll only be able to have 1 or 2 around at a time. Enlarge: gone for now due to the difficulty of dealing with large PCs(tunnels that aren't large enough for them to fit down, doors not big enough, weapons suddenly too small, etc). Plus, the spell would logically boost strength. Stat boosting effects are right out. Grease: Nothing wrong with it, per se...it is just much less useful than a spell that depletes hitpoints. When a creature has 85 hitpoints, it is better to do 20 of them in damage than it is to given them a minor chance of falling down and giving your allies +2 to hit for it being prone. Effects that just prolong combat rather than bringing it closer to an end are a no go. Protection from Arrows: Limited use compared to Invisibility, Shield, Mirror Image which all protect against ALL attacks instead of just some. With limited space in the book, it was the one to go. Rope Trick: It breaks campaigns in so many ways. As a DM, I'm glad to see this one go - "We're in the middle of the enemy stronghold, but we're almost out of spells...alright, let's cast Rope Trick and jump inside, we'll rest the night and continue assaulting the castle in the morning." Yeah, that's fair. As I've discussed in other threads on this topic, "creative casting" is another word for "too much power". It is almost always used to refer to the moment when a wizard uses a low level spell that is supposed to be a rather bad utility spell and then uses it in such a way that it ends up being more powerful than their 9th level spells. This makes it impossible to actually balance classes or predict the difficulty of a combat. Since one group might actually try to attack the Giant with swords and fireballs while another one convinces their DM that a Create Water by the Cleric followed by an Ice Storm from the Wizard automatically freezes him solid in the first round. [/QUOTE]
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