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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrGrenadine" data-source="post: 4260396" data-attributes="member: 62619">I agree--no wizard I've played as or with has ever loaded up on (memorized) Comp Lang, Invisibility, Discern Lies and other non-combat spells, because spell slots are extremely limited in 3.5, and most times, in most campaigns (IMO), a wizard is going to want a good crowd control, debuff, or damage spell at his or her fingertips in case things get violent.  Also, why take up a slot for a spell if someone else in the party can do that same thing?  Slots are too valuable for loading up with anything but your most powerful, most effective spells for the situation, (and if the situation is unknown, then your most powerful, effective and adaptable spells).However, I have to say--What's wrong with options?  I'm looking forward to playing 4e, but this is my biggest complaint with the design--excluding options just because someone decided they weren't useful *enough*, or *could* be exploited.  Thats for the DM to adjudicate, IMO.   If you're playing a more RP-centric game of political intrigue, or a murder mystery scenario, or one of a million other stories that are less dependent on violent encounters breaking out every half-a-session, then a wizard should have the option to have Discern Lies, Comp Language, or similar spells at the ready, without having to pause for 10 minutes.  Also, what if the character that would usually fill a particular role is incapacitated?  The rogue is unconscious, and someone appears and offers you help?  Perfect time to use that Discern Lies spell, (if you happen to have memorized it).Bottom line:  If 3.5 casters were too powerful, then limit their slots, or decrease spell durations--but why take options off the table just because some people don't see a need for them?MrGp.s.  Silence as a ritual confuses me.  There must be a Silence power as well, or some things--trying to sneak a group of armored warriors past a guard post, or fighting any kind of spell caster--is going to get a lot (and needlessly) tougher.</blockquote>

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