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<blockquote data-quote="Bacon Bits" data-source="post: 8270775" data-attributes="member: 6777737">Oh, I can come up with something, too. That isn't my point.The issue is that the existence of the Grappler feat implies that it's supposed to be limited to characters that have the Grappler feat. This is the Hide/Move Silently Thief problem. In introducing a mechanic whereby certain characters have access to a special mechanic, you suggest that this is the only way to access this mechanic. The very existence of the Thief made sneaking a Thief-only mechanic whereas before it was a feature for all PCs. Similarly, the very existence of the Grappler feat makes using athletics checks to restrain a grappled character feel like you're doing something you shouldn't. It says &quot;this is the mechanical way to access the option you seek.&quot;Under analysis, Grappler is a horrible feat and from a balance perspective I don't really see a massive problem with using the restrained feature from it with any character.&nbsp; It's a good mechanical resolution, too, and the most straightforward. However, maybe there's a reason not to do it. Maybe the devs tested it and found that it was abusive. Maybe as a non-feat it should require beating a grapple check by 5? Or maybe as a non-feat it should require two characters grappling one target to restrain them? Or maybe it should require rope or some other type of restraint? We don't know why they decided to create Grappler in the first place.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Bacon Bits, post: 8270775, member: 6777737"] Oh, I can come up with something, too. That isn't my point. The issue is that the existence of the Grappler feat implies that it's supposed to be limited to characters that have the Grappler feat. This is the Hide/Move Silently Thief problem. In introducing a mechanic whereby certain characters have access to a special mechanic, you suggest that this is the [I]only[/I] way to access this mechanic. The very existence of the Thief made sneaking a Thief-only mechanic whereas before it was a feature for all PCs. Similarly, the very existence of the Grappler feat makes using athletics checks to restrain a grappled character feel like you're doing something you shouldn't. It says "this is the mechanical way to access the option you seek." Under analysis, Grappler is a horrible feat and from a balance perspective I don't really see a massive problem with using the restrained feature from it with any character. It's a good mechanical resolution, too, and the most straightforward. However, maybe there's a reason not to do it. Maybe the devs tested it and found that it was abusive. Maybe as a non-feat it should require beating a grapple check by 5? Or maybe as a non-feat it should require two characters grappling one target to restrain them? Or maybe it should require rope or some other type of restraint? We don't know why they decided to create Grappler in the first place. [/QUOTE]

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