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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 8252884" data-attributes="member: 20323">One exercise – which I previously did with the ranger & sorcerer – is to go back to the descriptive text in the 5e PHB (which tends to be very good) for the class in question, with an eye for how that descriptive text could be manifested more completely in the rules.For the Bard, I'll break it down into bite-sized chunks...The current design achieves all these things. It can cast bestow curse, it can Inspire (i.e. manipulate fate) of allies and potentially enemies with bane or the Lore Bard's Cutting Words, can heal with a word, and manipulate the masses with mass suggestion.<h2></h2>Music has a weak presence in the core Bard class, mainly embodied with the very cool Countersong ability, along with some music instrument proficiencies & being able to use instruments as arcane foci. The expectation seems to be that the player and/or DM will flavor the Bard's spellcasting as musical in nature. On the face of it, that works.However, if we look at the Rune Knight fighter subclass, there is a whole categorization of giant runes baked into the class which distinguish the flavor of magic which the Rune Knight is drawing upon. Musical magical power seems a natural place to include such distinctiveness in the bard, but the conservative design missed this opportunity.To better embody the flavor text they're using to describe the Bard's connection to music and what that means in the D&D-verse, there's definitely design space to explore that.The Bard is being described as something of a "jack" right here, but it's important to note that the scope is tighter than the Rogue – specifically balancing (a) magic, (b) combat, (c) music, and (d) "esoteric knowledge." Here at least, that "jack-ness" is not attached to skills.My observation is that while (b) combat is successfully off-loaded to the Valor Bard, however (d) "esoteric knowledge" is not successfully off-loaded to the Lore Bard. The problem with the Lore Bard is that the knowledge doesn't feel "esoteric", but rather replicating what others can do, and Peerless Skill is moving into territory outside of that original flavor description.I think the move for me would be toning down the presence of (a) magic, in order to make room for more (c) music and possible (d) "esoteric knowledge" in the core class.One interesting (and I suspect deliberate) omission from 5e was Monster Knowledge Checks. There are traces of it in the Battlemaster Fighter, but mostly it's in a grey zone up to each DM. The Bard and/or the Ranger might be interesting places to explore some incarnation of Monster Knowledge Checks, perhaps manifesting in different ways. That's one possible way to bring more (d) "esoteric knowledge" into the core Bard class.<h2></h2><h2></h2>A couple words have appeared so far: "scholar", "hard study", and "depth of knowledge" that 5e interprets withe the skill/proficiency rules. I think attempting to manifest that flavor with the same mechanics as other classes is what leads to the Bard poaching the rogue's Expertise.If I were playing a bard in a more indie game, for instance, I'd almost want to lean into the "yes, but" or "yes, and" improv idea where the bard player can make certain declarations about the world and its people, and those become partially binding fact for the DM to play with. Obviously, that's further afield than D&D, but there may be a sophisticated design move to make that achieves the right D&D-balance with just a touch of such indie game thinking.This is a potent paragraph of flavor which, in my mind, describes a bard evolving directly from their experiences in adventure in a way that works parallel to (but separate from) the usual XP/leveling system. Achieving design of that sort of class feature within D&D – and without treading on Rogue's skill monkey niche – is tricky.However, if you're familiar with The Bard's Tale series of games, part of your leveling in those video games involves learning new songs – which are tied in some way to the unfolding narrative. It felt very on-brand for a Bard, in my experience, and we could draw inspiration from that.One ambitious way to translate this idea would be presenting a series of Songs (e.g. Song of the Untraveled Hill, Song of the Lost Companion, Song of the Fallen Foe) that you learn as you level, but have story requisites before you can learn them. But then you're pushing into unorthodox design space for 5th edition.Summing up the changes re-reading the Bard flavor text suggests to me...<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">More magical music class feature(s), emphasizing the bard learning from experience.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">More "esoteric knowledge" class feature(s), possibly inspired by indie game design and/or monster knowledge checks.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Remove Expertise.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Achieve better balance between magic, combat, music, and "esoteric knowledge" in the base class, potentially opening design space by reducing Spellcasting and/or Magical Secrets.</li> </ul>EDIT: There's also a line about "practice a variety of skills" which stands out. The flavor seems to distinguish the Bard as being ok (or at least not piss poor) at a variety of things, whereas the Rogue is good at several things and great at a few. So the flavor seems to support Jack of All Trades, but does not support Expertise.</blockquote>

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