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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5408925" data-attributes="member: 5834">reAre all you of pro-rogue people playing in customized campaigns?I'm running the Kingmaker Adventure path. Though they do incorporate some skill-based encounters, the module is still combat heavy. As in 90% of the xp gain comes from combat. And even without a rogue, the players are having little trouble doing the social skill part.The Half-elf ranger/Zen Archer monk has a +20 perception due to her focus on wisdom which the rogue can't do. And doesn't stealth much because the barbarian and fighter can kill most everything we come across straight up. This character is also superior at Sense Motive. We haven't needed Disable Device much at all. Not many magical traps in and outdoor exploration.And as far as damage goes, I have one player playing a Two-hander Fighter and another playing an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian with a Greatsword. They absolutely annihilate whatever they face and don't need to position to do it.Then toss in the arcane caster Druid/Wizard tossing magic missiles and scorching rays as well as a buff or helpful tactical spell here and there.And the oracle healing.The rogue class isn't needed.Thus the rogue is competing for playing time against the Zen Archer Monk/Ranger, which is a far more interesting class with less limitations on their abilities. So why would this player ever choose  a rogue over another class combination that is much more interesting and powerful?And this "oh your group is too combat focused" is bunk. The game is combat focused. It's built with a combat focus in mind. I doubt James Jacobs and the other game designers in any way, shape, or form would disagree.If you are making heavy skilled based campaigns, then you are the one not playing D&D the most common way. Even the modules are designed with combat as the primary focus of the game by the makers of Pathfinder.So the rogue should be on par as far as combat is concerned with every other class it competes with for playing time. That usually includes the monk, bard, inquisitor, and ranger. All classes with multiple good saves and a lot of very interesting abilities that aren't as  dependent as the rogue on circumstance.In the future, I would rather see them lower sneak attack damage and make the rogue's combat effectiveness less dependent on circumstance. The rogue should stand alone as an attractive class to play both from a combat and roleplaying perspective against every other class it competes again. And at the moment the rogue is not competitive with those other classes. I doubt my group is the only one that thinks so.I would love to see a survey done for groups playing either 3E or Pathfinder and see how many people are playing straight class rogues as a long-term character.My players love the Fighter now and people rarely played a straight class fighter all the way to 20th. Loved the Ranger changes. Absolutely loved the paladin and barbarian changes. Loved the monk changes. Loved the sorcerer bloodlines. And even like the wizard changes.Still no one feels the rogue is on par with the other classes. They read the class over, toy around with builds, and then move on to another class or multi-class their rogue a few levels for the trapfinding.What games are you seriously playing in? Do you guys not get to lvl 14 or so when you're getting hit with Aoe Holds, Destructions, charm and compulsion spells like fear and dominate, strange gaze attacks, and all types of strange special abilities from monsters that go off fort and will saves that destroy rogues? What game are you playing?Wander around the city and make bluff checks past the local guards? Are you all doing campaigns where you break into places and steal the jewels? And if so, what are the other characters doing why the rogue is doing all this skill-based stuff?It sounds like you're making up stuff to make the rogue seem better than it is, while me and my players are playing modules designed by the game designers that made the rogue class in the first place and finding the rogue is non-competitive for playing time. We're not doing anything special. The encounters are being run as they were designed. About all you can say we're doing out of the norm is running five characters versus four. Which you would think would boost somebody taking a chance playing a rogue. But with two melee damage dealer slots in a five man group, nothing survives long enough for the rogue to set up sneak attack. So five players is a further detriment to a rogue.Maybe in a straight four person group where the two melees aren't annihilating everything the rogue is more attractive because he has more time to set up. Or maybe all you "rogue is fine" guys are running heavy skill based campaigns you make up rather than Paizo designed modules. I don't know.But it sure seems like most here don't have much experience with optimized melee builds or arcane casters and what they can do past level 10 or so. And seem to think the rogue can keep up when he can't, not even with an optimized talent build.</blockquote>

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