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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5409558" data-attributes="member: 5834">reThat was illumunating Volaran. Thank you for listing your campaign experience. I wouldn't have minded seeing levels, but class dispersion was helpful. I would love to see more such dispersions to see how many players truly find even the current rogue as an attractive class compared to other classes with more and varied abilities that aren't situationally useful.Only one single class rogue in all those campaigns. Thanks for further proving my point. It's not an attractive class to play up as a single class.From what you listed, your group doesn't sound much different from mine. They take the rogue class probably to add trapfinding in and incorporate a multi-class part in to boost combat effectiveness or at least work towards a more interesting prestige class like Arcane Trickster.Part of it is the following reason:The problem isn't rogue damage. It's their abilities. If they get in position to sneak attack, they do comparable damage to the bard, inquisitor, monk, and ranger. It's that their abiltie are too situational. I tried to design a rogue last night that would be comparable to one of the classes listed and couldn't do it. Nothing they could take was better than what you get as another class.When the monk is automatically getting up to improved evasion, immunity to poison and disease, a ki pool that gives them an extra attack, bonus feats including Stunning Fist, extra AC, quivering palm, higher AC, up to 90 feet of movement, jumping ability, a self-heal, flurry of blows for up 7 attacks with higher to hit, and spell resistance. And three good saves.The bard is getting innate abilities that boost the party on top of a highly versatile spell list. And two good saves.The Inquisitor is getting versatile judgments, bane, equivalent of evasion versus Fort and Will saves, all detect alignments, and a highly versatile spell list. And two good saves.The ranger has favored enemies that work from ranged or melee, favored terrain, evasion, full BAB, free combat style feats, hide in plain site and camouflage that works in any favored terrain all the time (not once a day), and a versatile spell list. And two good saves.It would take a Herculean effort to redesign a rogue to compete with those other classes. Not going to bother. Someday Pathfinder will finally do an inventory of what other classes that compete for playing time against the rogue can do and design a rogue that is as attractive as the Inquisitor, Bard, Monk, and Ranger in terms of abilities.My main hope is that Pathfinder does for the rogue what they did for the Ranger. 3E managed to turn a ranger from a soso class few felt satisfied with, to a class that any player could enjoy playing from 1 to 20 and not feel hamstrung compared to other classes. That's all I'm asking for is that the game designers take a group of classes that compete against each other for playing time and do an inventory of those classes and see where they stand comparatively. If they truly don't see the rogue is lacking compararatively, I'll be very surprised. And if they see what most can see doing this inventory, they make a rogue with abilities as interesting and useful as the other classes.</blockquote>

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