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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5410999" data-attributes="member: 5834">reLvl 4 isn't high enough to see the problems with the rogue. If your friend thinks a character is his second favorite by level 4, that doesn't seem like a lot of experience playing.You pointing out one Paizo encounter that didn't require a guy being killed isn't a reflection of the entire module. I'm running Kingmaker and I could name such encounters. But they don't comprise the majority of the module. As I stated above, 90% of the Kingmaker module is combat outside of the kingdom building phases which don't require skills. Might have been nice had they incorporated bonuses for skills in the kingdom building part of the adventure.A class should be designed so that it is competitive with other similar classes. That means when the game designers look over the class, they can see comparable ability by other classes in and out of combat.They did a great job with this with the Inquisitor, Ranger, Monk, and Bard. Why such a poor job on the rogue?Let's take minor magic as an example. They let a rogue cast a single 0 level spell three times per day. Why not let a rogue cast a single 0-level spell as often as he wants? Bards can cast up to six 0-lvl spells as often as they want. So can Inquisitors. Why such a stiff limitation on the rogue? Is that zero-level spell abuseable? Being able to acrobatics at full speed as an advanced talent when the monk is SR, DR, up to 90 foot movement, and up to seven attacks a round?Let's take Camouflage. A rogue can do this one time a day. It takes a minute for him to activate. He has the same limitation as a ranger in their favored terrain. But a ranger can use Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight at will in his favored terrains.Improved Evasion is an advanced talent and both monks and rangers get it for free. I've already pointed out how many classes get two good saves. The only classes that don't get two good saves are the fighter (who gets bravery), the barbarian (who gets will save bonus while raging and Indomitable Will), and most of the arcane casters who can counter a bunch of stuff with spells. Even the paladin and ranger get two good saves. And the monk three. Why the single good save for the rogue who often puts himself in harm's way more often than any class in the game?No sneak attack against concealment without a talent? That's ridiculous. Not only does the rogue still get the base 20% mischance, but his best combat ability doesn't work with 20% concealment.They have some good abilities like Crippling Strike and Dispelling Attack. Some that are useful based on skills which I like.But it sure seems like they did not take the same amount of time and effort to develop a competitive and interesting rogue like they did the Ranger, Monk, Bard, and Inquisitor. I'm not sure why the rogue continues to be Paizo's red-headed step-child. The game designers sure don't seem to show the rogue the same kind of love they've shown almost every other class at this point. Even the fighter is hugely attractive to play to lvl 20 now and is the undisputed master of weapons.People used to hate playing the fighter to 20 as a single class because it was so uninteresting. Now it's one of the most played classes. I hope they one day design a rogue my group can love like they do the Ranger, Paladin, Monk, and Fighter now, at least the guy's that love melee. I love what they did with the wizard and sorcerer. Cleric's still mostly the same, but they were really powerful to begin with and didn't need much change. Though it would have been nice if the cleric had received a cool lvl 20 ability like the other classes.</blockquote>

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