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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shayuri" data-source="post: 5411132" data-attributes="member: 4936">I'll throw in here.I love rogues and roguey sorts. I am often drawn to those classes due to their fun flavor, and because I like the RP associated with them.That said, I have to agree that in most games I've played, from level 1 to level 20, rogues are way behind the curve in combat performance unless it's a rogue multiclass with a synergetic class. Rogues and rangers work well, for example, as do rogues and "finesse"-built fighters. This is especially true in Pathfinder, as one of the big advantages of rogues is their large list of class skills...which can be gained for a 1 level dip in Pathfinder.Pathfinder did improve rogues, especially in early levels. It's possible (even mandatory) to get Weapon Finesse at 2nd level now, meaning you only have to get through one level of pain, rather than 2 levels as in 3.5e. The increased HP help with this. The consolidated skill list and reframing of Disable Device as a Dex skill help with this. And Rogue Talents really help push rogues forward as secondary melee/scouts. It's not until past level 10 or so that I think rogues once again are supplanted by spellcasters. I don't blame this on Pathfinder in particular. High level spells are just...pretty overwhelming. There are very few situations that can't be solved with sufficient damage points of energy. Non-combat situations are usually solveable with a judicious Charm or Dominate. The few times one might need a rogue (say, to climb a tower and sneak into a lord's bedroom to steal a document) can be done more easily via spells (fly up, invisible, dimension door in, use Locate Object and Silence, then dimension door out...with Silent spell or a rod of metamagic).This leaves rogues as...the untrappers, really, since there are other ways to scout by those levels too. And while everyone likes untrapping, is that really enough to justify a whole other party member?*shrug*I dunno. Like I said, I like rogues. I'm just frustrated with how hard it is to make them "useful" to a group of characters. Especially high level ones.</blockquote>

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