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<blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 5412912" data-attributes="member: 35909">There's two things about making it will over fort:1. No matter what, a rogue will want a decent Con score for hp, but as it stands, rogues aren't known for their wisdom and will saves is basically THE reason a rogue doesn't sink his wis score.&nbsp; So I think good will saves would be more useful to the rogue, and also it'd be less of a power boost, since most would consider the fort save the &quot;most important&quot; one.&nbsp; It also makes Rogue end up a little more different than ranger, another sneaky high skill class with good fort and reflex saves.2. It may seem strange at first, but would it later?&nbsp; In 3E Paladins were a fairly wise class.&nbsp; In PF, they get good will (on top of charisma to saves) and all class features based on wisdom were moved to charisma.&nbsp; I have yet to see a PF Paladin with a wisdom above 7, it's just such an awesome dump stat for them now.&nbsp; It was a bit of a system shock at first, but I've mostly gotten over it now.&nbsp; And rogues already have a bit of &quot;strong willed when they need to be&quot; flavor: the slippery mind rogue talent.&nbsp; Also, my favorite skill monkey class ever, the Arcana Evolved Akashic, has good will saves only and has a strong emphasis on the power of the mind, so I think that helps make it seem more feasible if you reflavor rogue a little, too.Blinking no longer makes opponents you attack lose dex to AC, thus you cannot sneak attack with it.&nbsp; Blink and Grease were 2 of the only ways in core for a ranged rogue to get SA after the first round.&nbsp; As it stands now, all they have left is greater invisibility (if the enemy doesn't have the senses to foil it) and blinding the enemy (functionally the same effect, but good luck getting a good save DC from a wand/scroll, and PF nerfed the bejeesus out of glitterdust).Splash weapons simply gained text saying you can't do precision damage with them on the primary target.&nbsp; In core 3E, tossing acid flasks was a useful ranged rogue tactic, as if you qualify for sneak attack (they're flatfooted), you're now attacking flatfooted touch AC.&nbsp; For lots of acid damage.I'll post it later. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />EDIT: The will save thing basically boils down to &quot;I want to reduce Rogue's MAD, and I like the idea of making wisdom the Rogue's biggest dump stat.&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="StreamOfTheSky, post: 5412912, member: 35909"] There's two things about making it will over fort: 1. No matter what, a rogue will want a decent Con score for hp, but as it stands, rogues aren't known for their wisdom and will saves is basically THE reason a rogue doesn't sink his wis score. So I think good will saves would be more useful to the rogue, and also it'd be less of a power boost, since most would consider the fort save the "most important" one. It also makes Rogue end up a little more different than ranger, another sneaky high skill class with good fort and reflex saves. 2. It may seem strange at first, but would it later? In 3E Paladins were a fairly wise class. In PF, they get good will (on top of charisma to saves) and all class features based on wisdom were moved to charisma. I have yet to see a PF Paladin with a wisdom above 7, it's just such an awesome dump stat for them now. It was a bit of a system shock at first, but I've mostly gotten over it now. And rogues already have a bit of "strong willed when they need to be" flavor: the slippery mind rogue talent. Also, my favorite skill monkey class ever, the Arcana Evolved Akashic, has good will saves only and has a strong emphasis on the power of the mind, so I think that helps make it seem more feasible if you reflavor rogue a little, too. Blinking no longer makes opponents you attack lose dex to AC, thus you cannot sneak attack with it. Blink and Grease were 2 of the only ways in core for a ranged rogue to get SA after the first round. As it stands now, all they have left is greater invisibility (if the enemy doesn't have the senses to foil it) and blinding the enemy (functionally the same effect, but good luck getting a good save DC from a wand/scroll, and PF nerfed the bejeesus out of glitterdust). Splash weapons simply gained text saying you can't do precision damage with them on the primary target. In core 3E, tossing acid flasks was a useful ranged rogue tactic, as if you qualify for sneak attack (they're flatfooted), you're now attacking flatfooted touch AC. For lots of acid damage. I'll post it later. :) EDIT: The will save thing basically boils down to "I want to reduce Rogue's MAD, and I like the idea of making wisdom the Rogue's biggest dump stat." [/QUOTE]

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