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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 7682642" data-attributes="member: 48965">I don't think I stated it did or didn't make more interesting characters... Even so just splitting between 2 means a large decrease in number of feats taken compared to classes that aren't MAD or in a reduced capability in combat due to attributes being generally lower... If that's what you enjoy I can't argue with it... I'd rather be effective in combat and have my interesting abilities around my archetype... the abilities are where the diversity comes in for me, not what score they force me to increase... but to each his own.But MAD is not a requirement in a build for it to be diverse... the Mastermind and the Assassin are Dex builds and I'd say they are pretty diverse in what they allow one to accomplish...  Maybe this is where you are loosing me, You're stating X is necessary for diversity in builds but it's not...  I'd say the abilities it grants fit pretty well under the label... Reading over them reminds me of a Nathan Ford type character from Leverage...  Thug is a fighter (though you could do a strength build on a Rogue)... we have a mastermind build coming out, con-artist is a background and non-magical non-fighter is not really an archetype...Are they viable?  Or does a battlemaster fighter with the Archery style, maneuvers, longbow access, etc. totally overshadow/outclass them and now they are just mediocre spell casters and mediocre archers?  Is that an interesting choice, because if these are viable and an interesting choice... well then I don't see the issue in you making a Strength rogue...   I think you're either reading more into what I posted or getting defensive here... I was making it clear that I knew I had asked this question earlier in my post and was asking it again... nothing negative and not inferring anything about an answer I hadn't read yet...But all of these are as viable as your archer Cleric above... Well mark me down as someone who is more interested in the actual abilities of the subclass/archetype being diversified and allowing me to play the archetype to form while staying combat effective without forcing me to split between two different ability scores for concept (though nothing stops me from doing this if I want to)...  But yeah, I think it's pretty clear where both of us stand on the issue.</blockquote>

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