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Rogue: Pure skill personified
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<blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 5837600" data-attributes="member: 35909"><p>Just remembered that I didn't consider the 20th level capstones. I guess just let player choose one or the other. *shrug*</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because the expert is a generic "great at X skills" class, while rogue actually has some flavor and fluff attached. Certain skills are just "rogue skills" and others are not. I'm hesitant to veer from that, as I like the flavor of rogues, it's why they're my favorite class. I have every skill listed for epic skills right now, but...I don't plan on actually creating techniques for all of them. Some, like spellcraft or knowledges, may get none at all. Others like Acrobatics and Escape Artist, obviously will have many options.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Thanks. And other than merging the two classes and the specifics of the epic skills, most of this stuff I have floated around for over a year now, you probably saw it somewhere. Your concerns are all valid, and I have been considering them as well.</p><p></p><p>- Skill Focus: It's a sloppy patchwork fix. I want rogues to be able to excel at or at least nearly equal any other class at their most valued skills, like they could in 3E. I've found, from in game experience and examining the numbers, that other than Disable Device, rogues seem to be easily outshone by at least one other class at every other skill, usually by many other classes. Even something as intrinsic as stealth, archer ranger and monk do it as good or better bonus-wise, and bring other benefits to the table (ranger: spell buffs, favored terrain, and camo / HiPS; monk: ability to stealth mode at great speed). I'd definitely be open to something else, but I do want some mechanic to help the rogue ensure he can be top tier at at least <em>some</em> skills. As for Epic Skills, the original thought was to give a <strong>gigantic</strong> bonus on a skill check roll for the purposes of using them and then actually have the rogue attempt the epic skill DCs (which could reach 100+ in some cases!). I quickly realized how silly and messy that'd be and scrapped it for a merit-based "must be this tall to ride" system based on ranks.</p><p></p><p>- I agree rogue talents suck. I kinda just figured a rogue w/ these houserules would pick ninja tricks. Why spend effort fixing talents when paizo already did the work for me (with some issues, though) by making ninja tricks? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>- It might be too complicated. As long as they get something to boost initiative and surprise round actions, I'll be happy. Just sick of these War or Time mystery Oracles, Tactics domain Clerics, Sohei Monks, Diviner Wizards, and gods knows what else getting all these massive initiative boons and rogue getting zilch. That ain't right. It just ain't!</p><p></p><p>- It is awkward to have 2 pools. However,</p><p>1) I don't think ninja gets enough ki points to support both functions currently. Especially after the nerfs from playtest to final version (some ki costs went up and originally most of the tricks gave you one free usage per day before they cost ki to use additional times). If there were a ki recharge mechanic like you suggested this may not be an issue.</p><p>2) I figured these were more powerful than anything you could spend a ki point on, even compared to most advanced ninja tricks. Maybe not, Invisible Blade and a few others ARE pretty good, and don't have the high skill rank requirements epic skills do...</p><p>Making it all work off of ki pool and giving a reliable recharge mechanic to get significantly more ki per day than currently allowed may be the best solution.</p><p></p><p>- Saves is the only thing I disagree completely with you on. Having a constant good base will save can represent luck just as well as having some ki point held in reserve and (in light of your other criticisms) is less complicated. I actually think high will suits a rogue well. Rogues have always been depicted as plucky and with a knack for wriggling out of mind affecting spells (Slippery Mind).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="StreamOfTheSky, post: 5837600, member: 35909"] Just remembered that I didn't consider the 20th level capstones. I guess just let player choose one or the other. *shrug* Because the expert is a generic "great at X skills" class, while rogue actually has some flavor and fluff attached. Certain skills are just "rogue skills" and others are not. I'm hesitant to veer from that, as I like the flavor of rogues, it's why they're my favorite class. I have every skill listed for epic skills right now, but...I don't plan on actually creating techniques for all of them. Some, like spellcraft or knowledges, may get none at all. Others like Acrobatics and Escape Artist, obviously will have many options. Thanks. And other than merging the two classes and the specifics of the epic skills, most of this stuff I have floated around for over a year now, you probably saw it somewhere. Your concerns are all valid, and I have been considering them as well. - Skill Focus: It's a sloppy patchwork fix. I want rogues to be able to excel at or at least nearly equal any other class at their most valued skills, like they could in 3E. I've found, from in game experience and examining the numbers, that other than Disable Device, rogues seem to be easily outshone by at least one other class at every other skill, usually by many other classes. Even something as intrinsic as stealth, archer ranger and monk do it as good or better bonus-wise, and bring other benefits to the table (ranger: spell buffs, favored terrain, and camo / HiPS; monk: ability to stealth mode at great speed). I'd definitely be open to something else, but I do want some mechanic to help the rogue ensure he can be top tier at at least [i]some[/i] skills. As for Epic Skills, the original thought was to give a [b]gigantic[/b] bonus on a skill check roll for the purposes of using them and then actually have the rogue attempt the epic skill DCs (which could reach 100+ in some cases!). I quickly realized how silly and messy that'd be and scrapped it for a merit-based "must be this tall to ride" system based on ranks. - I agree rogue talents suck. I kinda just figured a rogue w/ these houserules would pick ninja tricks. Why spend effort fixing talents when paizo already did the work for me (with some issues, though) by making ninja tricks? ;) - It might be too complicated. As long as they get something to boost initiative and surprise round actions, I'll be happy. Just sick of these War or Time mystery Oracles, Tactics domain Clerics, Sohei Monks, Diviner Wizards, and gods knows what else getting all these massive initiative boons and rogue getting zilch. That ain't right. It just ain't! - It is awkward to have 2 pools. However, 1) I don't think ninja gets enough ki points to support both functions currently. Especially after the nerfs from playtest to final version (some ki costs went up and originally most of the tricks gave you one free usage per day before they cost ki to use additional times). If there were a ki recharge mechanic like you suggested this may not be an issue. 2) I figured these were more powerful than anything you could spend a ki point on, even compared to most advanced ninja tricks. Maybe not, Invisible Blade and a few others ARE pretty good, and don't have the high skill rank requirements epic skills do... Making it all work off of ki pool and giving a reliable recharge mechanic to get significantly more ki per day than currently allowed may be the best solution. - Saves is the only thing I disagree completely with you on. Having a constant good base will save can represent luck just as well as having some ki point held in reserve and (in light of your other criticisms) is less complicated. I actually think high will suits a rogue well. Rogues have always been depicted as plucky and with a knack for wriggling out of mind affecting spells (Slippery Mind). [/QUOTE]
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