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Rogue: Pure skill personified
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<blockquote data-quote="SteelDraco" data-source="post: 5838639" data-attributes="member: 359"><p>My solution is to give rogues access to those abilities that alter the way the skill check works and give them more options with the skills, rather than just ramping up the numbers they can get. The "roll twice and take the better" mechanic is better to me because it reinforces the rogue being consistently the best at those skills in a way that I don't think a straight numbers bonus does.</p><p></p><p>For example, a rogue who wants to be sneaky can take Skill Adept (Stealth), the Vanish talent, and around 8th level Hide in Plain Sight. Bam, they're a master of disappearing when they want to. These would all be rogue talents, which would largely fill the purpose you're using Epic Skills for - giving rogues more than just a numerical bonus to skills, but modifying how those skills interact with other mechanics.</p><p></p><p>One of my goals is to fold at least some of the mechanics of the Assassin and Shadowdancer into the core class; I think shadow magic and stealthy murder are core enough concepts for a rogue that you shouldn't need to take a prestige class to dip your toe into it. I'm also considering a poison talent tree that lets them spend cunning to just go "this strike is poisoned and does extra stuff because of it." If alchemists can make bombs with a per-day mechanic I don't have much problem with rogues making poisons in a similar way, though I don't plan to use ability damage mechanics until later.</p><p></p><p>Clearly I like the rogue talents mechanic more than you do; I think the "choose your powers from a list" mechanic is my favorite thing in all of Pathfinder and I use it as much as I can mechanically.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think one pool would be better by far. I know I'd dislike having to track two different ones.</p><p></p><p>I think ki can do some reasonably powerful things, and at higher levels I don't see why it couldn't do some quite powerful things several steps into a feat tree. Heck, just giving a ninja in a position to sneak attack an extra attack at their highest bonus is likely to be a decent chunk of damage for their level.</p><p></p><p>I seem to recall you dislike the gunslinger (I'm not a fan of guns in D&D myself), but I like the grit mechanic and the idea of rewarding the character for doing things appropriate to their class. I'm still waffling on how they'd recharge their pool, though. So far I have just</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Drop a worthy opponent with a sneak attack</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Beat a worthy opponent on an opposed skill check by a significant margin</li> </ul><p>That might be all, though I'd consider adding more to complement a certain level of specialization in a talent tree (so the poison-focused rogue might have a talent later on that adds "You gain a point of cunning when an opponent fails a poison save by five or more").</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure yet on how to quantify "wins an opposed check by a significant margin". There can be a very large discrepancy between the skill check of a mid-to-high level rogue and someone untrained in whatever the skill to resist is. I feel like the margin should get larger as the rogue gains levels, but I'm not sure how the numbers should fall. My first thought was "5 or more below 10th level, 10 or more above 10th level", but it's possible to twink out skills to a degree that those are quite easy to do.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I see where you're coming from. I just don't agree with you. I'd rather have the rogue's mental slipperiness come from a talent that only some rogues have; it doesn't fit the base concept for me.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="SteelDraco, post: 5838639, member: 359"] My solution is to give rogues access to those abilities that alter the way the skill check works and give them more options with the skills, rather than just ramping up the numbers they can get. The "roll twice and take the better" mechanic is better to me because it reinforces the rogue being consistently the best at those skills in a way that I don't think a straight numbers bonus does. For example, a rogue who wants to be sneaky can take Skill Adept (Stealth), the Vanish talent, and around 8th level Hide in Plain Sight. Bam, they're a master of disappearing when they want to. These would all be rogue talents, which would largely fill the purpose you're using Epic Skills for - giving rogues more than just a numerical bonus to skills, but modifying how those skills interact with other mechanics. One of my goals is to fold at least some of the mechanics of the Assassin and Shadowdancer into the core class; I think shadow magic and stealthy murder are core enough concepts for a rogue that you shouldn't need to take a prestige class to dip your toe into it. I'm also considering a poison talent tree that lets them spend cunning to just go "this strike is poisoned and does extra stuff because of it." If alchemists can make bombs with a per-day mechanic I don't have much problem with rogues making poisons in a similar way, though I don't plan to use ability damage mechanics until later. Clearly I like the rogue talents mechanic more than you do; I think the "choose your powers from a list" mechanic is my favorite thing in all of Pathfinder and I use it as much as I can mechanically. I think one pool would be better by far. I know I'd dislike having to track two different ones. I think ki can do some reasonably powerful things, and at higher levels I don't see why it couldn't do some quite powerful things several steps into a feat tree. Heck, just giving a ninja in a position to sneak attack an extra attack at their highest bonus is likely to be a decent chunk of damage for their level. I seem to recall you dislike the gunslinger (I'm not a fan of guns in D&D myself), but I like the grit mechanic and the idea of rewarding the character for doing things appropriate to their class. I'm still waffling on how they'd recharge their pool, though. So far I have just [LIST] [*]Drop a worthy opponent with a sneak attack [*]Beat a worthy opponent on an opposed skill check by a significant margin [/LIST] That might be all, though I'd consider adding more to complement a certain level of specialization in a talent tree (so the poison-focused rogue might have a talent later on that adds "You gain a point of cunning when an opponent fails a poison save by five or more"). I'm not sure yet on how to quantify "wins an opposed check by a significant margin". There can be a very large discrepancy between the skill check of a mid-to-high level rogue and someone untrained in whatever the skill to resist is. I feel like the margin should get larger as the rogue gains levels, but I'm not sure how the numbers should fall. My first thought was "5 or more below 10th level, 10 or more above 10th level", but it's possible to twink out skills to a degree that those are quite easy to do. I see where you're coming from. I just don't agree with you. I'd rather have the rogue's mental slipperiness come from a talent that only some rogues have; it doesn't fit the base concept for me. [/QUOTE]
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