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<blockquote data-quote="Ibixat" data-source="post: 4560550" data-attributes="member: 71416">Usually they do but I'll be going to 1d8 for the crossbow with drow feat and with two fisted shooter I get a free ranged basic attack any time I crit.&nbsp; I'm sitting at +9 to hit with my hand crossbow at 4th level +11 with my dagger or +10 with a shuriken (not including magic item bonus) at 1-6 (2-6 since I wouldn't range attack at 1) squares the Shuriken is +1 to hit vs the hand crossbow, at 7-10 squares the crossbow is actually +1 over the shuriken due to range, then at 11 and 12 shuriken is +1 again then 13-20 the shuriken is just out of luck completely.&nbsp; When you figure that my primary weapon is probably going to have better enchant than my shuriken or crossbow would then I may as well use my dagger if I'm throwing under 5 squares.Here is a quick chart, taking equal enchantments into consideration the dagger vs shuriken vs hand xbow to proficiency + talent bonuses at overlapping ranges etc.[code]&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; +2Range&nbsp; &nbsp; Dagr&nbsp; &nbsp; Shrkn&nbsp; &nbsp; HndXbw1-5&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 26&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 27-10&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; 211-12&nbsp; &nbsp; x&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; 013-20&nbsp; &nbsp; x&nbsp; &nbsp; x&nbsp; &nbsp; 0With Far Shot and Far Throw Factored in&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; +2Range&nbsp; &nbsp; Dagr&nbsp; &nbsp; Shrkn&nbsp; &nbsp; HndXbw1-7&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 28&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 29-12&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; 212-14&nbsp; &nbsp; x&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; 215&nbsp; &nbsp; x&nbsp; &nbsp; x&nbsp; &nbsp; 216-25&nbsp; &nbsp; x&nbsp; &nbsp; x&nbsp; &nbsp; 0[/code]So at short range unless you have the same magic + on your shuriken as your dagger throwing the dagger is the better choice, most people would have a +1 dagger and non magic shuriken or +2 dagger and still only +1 shuriken, which completely negates the D6 vs D4 reason to use shuriken, and the +1 to hit benefit of the dagger at 1-5 squares is nothing to sneeze at.&nbsp; The same goes for dagger vs hand crossbow at 1-5 squares, dagger's +2 to hit and likely +1 better enchantment makes it the better choice.At 6 squares the shuriken hit's it's sweet spot!At 7-10 squares the dagger if +1 more than your crossbow is also better again.&nbsp; Same to hit and crossbow is 1 damage better per die of damage etc, basically if you have +2 dagger and +1 crossbow, you may want to use the dagger as your damage on a 1W attack will be the same, if you do take the drow feat to get D8 crossbow then the crossbow does get better at range 6-10 than the dagger if the same enchantment bonus.Range 11-12 is another shuiken vs hand crossbow sweet spot but at this point you basically have dagger best at 1-5, shuriken best at 6, dagger and hand crossbow better than shuriken at 7-10, shuriken better at 11 12 and hand crossbow the only choice at 13-20.1-5 Dagger6 Shuriken7-10 Dagger OR Xbow11-12 Shuriken13-20 Xbow.This does not stack up well for a shuriken.My prior statement about using shuriken was true by the way, but I guess I should have pointed out it was only if I needed the range over the dagger and before I got the magic dagger.Far shot and far throw make the hand crossbow and dagger even more attractive against the shuriken</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ibixat, post: 4560550, member: 71416"] Usually they do but I'll be going to 1d8 for the crossbow with drow feat and with two fisted shooter I get a free ranged basic attack any time I crit. I'm sitting at +9 to hit with my hand crossbow at 4th level +11 with my dagger or +10 with a shuriken (not including magic item bonus) at 1-6 (2-6 since I wouldn't range attack at 1) squares the Shuriken is +1 to hit vs the hand crossbow, at 7-10 squares the crossbow is actually +1 over the shuriken due to range, then at 11 and 12 shuriken is +1 again then 13-20 the shuriken is just out of luck completely. When you figure that my primary weapon is probably going to have better enchant than my shuriken or crossbow would then I may as well use my dagger if I'm throwing under 5 squares. Here is a quick chart, taking equal enchantments into consideration the dagger vs shuriken vs hand xbow to proficiency + talent bonuses at overlapping ranges etc. [code] +4 +3 +2 Range Dagr Shrkn HndXbw 1-5 4 3 2 6 2 3 2 7-10 2 1 2 11-12 x 1 0 13-20 x x 0 With Far Shot and Far Throw Factored in +4 +3 +2 Range Dagr Shrkn HndXbw 1-7 4 3 2 8 2 3 2 9-12 2 1 2 12-14 x 1 2 15 x x 2 16-25 x x 0 [/code] So at short range unless you have the same magic + on your shuriken as your dagger throwing the dagger is the better choice, most people would have a +1 dagger and non magic shuriken or +2 dagger and still only +1 shuriken, which completely negates the D6 vs D4 reason to use shuriken, and the +1 to hit benefit of the dagger at 1-5 squares is nothing to sneeze at. The same goes for dagger vs hand crossbow at 1-5 squares, dagger's +2 to hit and likely +1 better enchantment makes it the better choice. At 6 squares the shuriken hit's it's sweet spot! At 7-10 squares the dagger if +1 more than your crossbow is also better again. Same to hit and crossbow is 1 damage better per die of damage etc, basically if you have +2 dagger and +1 crossbow, you may want to use the dagger as your damage on a 1W attack will be the same, if you do take the drow feat to get D8 crossbow then the crossbow does get better at range 6-10 than the dagger if the same enchantment bonus. Range 11-12 is another shuiken vs hand crossbow sweet spot but at this point you basically have dagger best at 1-5, shuriken best at 6, dagger and hand crossbow better than shuriken at 7-10, shuriken better at 11 12 and hand crossbow the only choice at 13-20. 1-5 Dagger 6 Shuriken 7-10 Dagger OR Xbow 11-12 Shuriken 13-20 Xbow. This does not stack up well for a shuriken. My prior statement about using shuriken was true by the way, but I guess I should have pointed out it was only if I needed the range over the dagger and before I got the magic dagger. Far shot and far throw make the hand crossbow and dagger even more attractive against the shuriken [/QUOTE]

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