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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kae'Yoss" data-source="post: 2046768" data-attributes="member: 4134">He's behind two points. Plus the fighter has weapon focus. Plus the fighter has the better AC. And if the rogue uses two weapons, that's another -2.The difference is small, but there.  Both are good to begin with. You can make one of them even better.Let's just conjure up some characters here. Standard money, standard array, human characters. That's 9000 gp (max 4500 per item) and 15/14/13/12/10/8 for ability scores +1 for level 4Fighter Build 1 (Sword & Board)Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8. Feats: Exotic Weapon (Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus (BS), Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword), Iron Will.Items: Bastard Sword +1 (2335) Full Plate +1 (2650), Heavy Shield +1 (1170) Ring of Prot +1 (2000), misc other stuff.HP: 5d10+10 (42)AC: 24 (+9 full plate +1, +3 heavy shield +1, +1 dex, +1 ring of protection +1) touch 12, flat-footed 23Attack: Bastard Sword + 10 melee (1d10+6, average 11.5); can be as much as +5 (16.5)Fighter Build 2 (Heavy weapon)As above, except:Feats: Instead of Exotic Weapon, Improved Sunder, Focus and so on on GreatswordItems: Greatsword +1 (2350) Full Plate +1 (2650), Ring of Prot +1 (2000), Cloak of Res +1 (1000), miscAC 21 (+9 full plate), +1 dex, +1 ring of prot +1), touch 12, ff 20Attack Greatsword + 10 melee (2d6+7, average 14); can be as much as +5 (24)Rogue Build 1 (one weapon)Str 12 Dex 16, Con 14 Int 13, Wis 10 Cha 8Feats: Improved Initiative, Dodge, Weapon FinesseItems: +1 rapier (2320), +1 mithral shirt (2150), ring of prot +1 (2000), buckler +1 (1165), cloak of res +1 (1000), misc stuff.HP 5d6+10 (30)AC 22 (+5 mithral shirt +1, +2 buckler +1, +1 ring of prot, +3 dex, +1 dodge)Attack Rapier + 7 (1d6+2/ 1d6+2+3d6; average 5.5/16)Rogue 2 (two-weapon)As above, exceptFeats: TWF instead of dodgeItems: +1 short sword x 2 (4620), +1 mithral shirt (2150), ring of prot +1 (2000)AC 19 (+5 mithral shirt, +1 ring, +3 dex)Attack: Short Sword +5 (1d6+2/1d6+2+3d6; 5.5/16) and Short Sword +5 (1d6+1/1d6+1+3d6; 4.5/15; but let's just say he deals 5.5/16 with that one, too)(Note that these rogues are combat-oriented, I wouldn't play it, I'd give him higher charisma, no buckler, and so on)Now, with Improved Ini it is almost guaranteed that the rogue will start, and he might get a surprise round as well (though he would probably have to use that to move up to the fighter, we just assume that the rogue gets his surprise round and starts right next to the fighter, weapons drawn)Rogue 1 vs Fighter 1: The rogue has a 25% chance to hit the fighter in the surprise round and in round 1, with 15% chance for a crit (which again has 25% chance to hit). So he has a 50% chance to hit once in the first round. This is a 50 percant chance for a little more than 16 damage (due to the unlikely crit), so the fighter's down to 26 or still has his 42. (34 on average)Then, it's the fighter's turn. He has a 45% hit chance, dealing 11,5 damage on a hit, and with the chance of a crit, the average damage is 5,5, taking the rogue down to 24,5. Now, the rogue only has 20% chance to hit, and hits only deal 5,5, so his statistical average damage is not even 1.5 points. (the figher's average Damage will decrease with power attack)So the rogue has to hit with both his sneak attacks (which is unlikely) to have a chance.Rogue 2 vs Fighter 1: 3 possible sneak attacks (only one in surprise round). He will need an 18 to hit. That means he doesn't even have 50% chance to hit with either, so the average damage he does is less than 3 per attack, or 9 before the fighter gets to act.Said fighter only needs a 9 to hit, and therefore deals a statistical average of 7.5 per hit. So when the fighter starts swinging, he's down to 31 to the rogue's 30, and will have him in 4 rounds. The rogue, now without his SA and with even worse chances to hit, will deal 3.5 points of damage on average. Sure victory for the fighter. Again, power attack won't help the fighter.Rogue 1 vs Figther 2: Needs 13 to hit with his first two attacks (the SA's), that's 40 %, or statistical average of less than 7 per hit. So fighter's now down to 28. He's got the same chance to hit (12+), but with more damage, so the statistical average damage is almost 7. The rogue will now only have 35% to hit, and no sneak attack, which makes an average of not even 2.5 per hit. Fighter wins probably. A low power attack value will increase the damage, but only a bit.Rogue 2, Fighter 2: Rogue's first 3 attacks hit on 15 or better, average 5 per hit, 15 in the first 2 rounds. Fighter's now on 27. That's 9 per hit on average. Rogue now only hits with 16 or better, and then only 5.5, average damage 1.5 per hit or 3 per round. Fighter wins again. With power attack, the average damage of Fighter can to up to 10 per round</blockquote>

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