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Rogues are Awesome. Is it the Tasha's Effect?
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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8375219" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>no if you crunch the numbers I am right. Your increase in weapon damage is only if you hit with both attacks and in that case it is only 2.5. If you miss with one of the rolls your weapon damage is always worse and if you miss with the first roll you lose your ability damage too.</p><p></p><p>Here is the actual average DPR vs a 15 AC foe for various Rogues.</p><p></p><p>Level 3 (16 Dex)</p><p>TWF short swords: 11.9DPR</p><p>Rapier/Xbow steady aim: 12.7DPR</p><p></p><p>Level 7 (18 Dex)</p><p>TWF short swords: 20.7DPR</p><p>Rapier/Xbow steady aim: 21.5DPR</p><p></p><p>Level 11 (20 Dex)</p><p>TWF short swords: 30.3DPR</p><p>Rapier/Xbow steady aim: 31.1DPR</p><p></p><p>I mentioned the reasons above a crit on the second dice rolled and ability bonus on either dice.</p><p></p><p>Someone using advantage has a substantially greater chance of landing a crit with his SA than someone using TWF. For example 11th level with TWF vs AC15 if you roll any number between 6-19 on the first roll and a 20 on the second roll you do 9d6+5 (average 36.5) that is 1d6 weapon + 6d6SA+5 on the action and a 2d6 crit on the bonus action. If you roll those same two attack rolls in that order using a Rapier and advantage at 11th level you do 2d8+12d6+5 (average 56). That is a whopping 19.5 point difference every time you hit with the first dice you roll and crit with the second. Against a 15 AC that will happen on average once in every 29 turns meaning you will not get crit SA dice on rougly one out of every three natural 20s you roll.</p><p></p><p>If you reverse the order (crit on the first roll) the damage is 57.5 vs 56 only slightly higher for the TWF.</p><p></p><p>If you miss on one of the rolls and hit on the other the Rapier wielder does an average of 3.5 more on a normal hit (1 more because of a d8 weapon, 2.5 more because of ability bonus) or 4.5 more on average if it is a crit. Note I am considering which dice missed random.</p><p></p><p>These numbers assume no magic and a 15AC. Lower AC and magic weapons will drive it further in favor of the d8 advantage guy. Higher AC will drive it in favor of the TWF.</p><p></p><p>To sum it up, both characters are rolling 2d20s against a given AC.</p><p>When they do the same damage :</p><p>If both dice miss they do the same damage (0)</p><p></p><p>When TWF does more damage:</p><p>If both dice hit without a crit TWF will do 2.5DPR more</p><p>If 1st dice crits and 2nd dice hits TWF will do 1.5DPR more</p><p>If both dice crit TWF will do 5DPR more</p><p></p><p>When a d8 does more damage:</p><p>If 1st dice hits and 2nd dice misses d8 will do 1DPR more</p><p>If 1st dice misses and 2nd dice hits d8 will do 4-6DPR more (1 for weapon + 3-5 for dex)</p><p>If 1st dice crits and 2nd dice misses d8 will do 2DPR more</p><p>If 1st dice hits and 2nd dice crits d8 will do a lot more (3.5 more per SA dice - 1.5)</p><p>If 1st dice misses and 2nd dice crits d8 will do 5-7DPR more (2 for weapon, + 3-5 for dex)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8375219, member: 7030563"] no if you crunch the numbers I am right. Your increase in weapon damage is only if you hit with both attacks and in that case it is only 2.5. If you miss with one of the rolls your weapon damage is always worse and if you miss with the first roll you lose your ability damage too. Here is the actual average DPR vs a 15 AC foe for various Rogues. Level 3 (16 Dex) TWF short swords: 11.9DPR Rapier/Xbow steady aim: 12.7DPR Level 7 (18 Dex) TWF short swords: 20.7DPR Rapier/Xbow steady aim: 21.5DPR Level 11 (20 Dex) TWF short swords: 30.3DPR Rapier/Xbow steady aim: 31.1DPR I mentioned the reasons above a crit on the second dice rolled and ability bonus on either dice. Someone using advantage has a substantially greater chance of landing a crit with his SA than someone using TWF. For example 11th level with TWF vs AC15 if you roll any number between 6-19 on the first roll and a 20 on the second roll you do 9d6+5 (average 36.5) that is 1d6 weapon + 6d6SA+5 on the action and a 2d6 crit on the bonus action. If you roll those same two attack rolls in that order using a Rapier and advantage at 11th level you do 2d8+12d6+5 (average 56). That is a whopping 19.5 point difference every time you hit with the first dice you roll and crit with the second. Against a 15 AC that will happen on average once in every 29 turns meaning you will not get crit SA dice on rougly one out of every three natural 20s you roll. If you reverse the order (crit on the first roll) the damage is 57.5 vs 56 only slightly higher for the TWF. If you miss on one of the rolls and hit on the other the Rapier wielder does an average of 3.5 more on a normal hit (1 more because of a d8 weapon, 2.5 more because of ability bonus) or 4.5 more on average if it is a crit. Note I am considering which dice missed random. These numbers assume no magic and a 15AC. Lower AC and magic weapons will drive it further in favor of the d8 advantage guy. Higher AC will drive it in favor of the TWF. To sum it up, both characters are rolling 2d20s against a given AC. When they do the same damage : If both dice miss they do the same damage (0) When TWF does more damage: If both dice hit without a crit TWF will do 2.5DPR more If 1st dice crits and 2nd dice hits TWF will do 1.5DPR more If both dice crit TWF will do 5DPR more When a d8 does more damage: If 1st dice hits and 2nd dice misses d8 will do 1DPR more If 1st dice misses and 2nd dice hits d8 will do 4-6DPR more (1 for weapon + 3-5 for dex) If 1st dice crits and 2nd dice misses d8 will do 2DPR more If 1st dice hits and 2nd dice crits d8 will do a lot more (3.5 more per SA dice - 1.5) If 1st dice misses and 2nd dice crits d8 will do 5-7DPR more (2 for weapon, + 3-5 for dex) [/QUOTE]
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