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<blockquote data-quote="Lyxen" data-source="post: 8377702" data-attributes="member: 7032025">OK, where does the RAW say that a rogue should get the benefit of being an unseen attacker ?Remember that there are very often multiple rules that apply, so the hide action does not say that whoever takes it will get the benefit forever. And that section refers to <a href="http://no set of rules could reasonably account for every contingency. If the rules tried to do so, the game would become unplayable" target="_blank">this</a>, and the sentence starts with &quot;IF you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack...&quot;So even if you take the hide action, and gain some benefits, because that specific benefit starts with an &quot;IF&quot;, if it's not realised, then you do not get the benefit.No, but you said &quot;So you set the difficulty to hide&quot; which you actually do not, it's a contest so it's sort of set for you by the rules. No worry there, it was just to express the fact that you do not arbitrarily set a DC in this specific case.Exactly, what's the point of trying to be silent when the adversary knows exactly where you are and can watch that place ? Again, no one is forbidding it, but it seems pointless and the world should reflect it. Fortunately, the rules allow this 100% RAW.That's what I like about the stealth rules, they are fairly simple but cover lots of cases. The difference with the bush is that you do not need to pop out to fire that crossbow, you can do it from inside the bush, because not only can you see out of the bush to ascertain exactly where the target is, but your projectile can easily ignore leaves whereas it cannot ignore a stone pillar.So watching the bush is not going to allow the watcher any way to see you more clearly (and therefore make you lose your &quot;hidden&quot; status) before you shoot, and therefore the &quot;IF&quot; above resolves in favour of the rogue. Clear ? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lyxen, post: 8377702, member: 7032025"] OK, where does the RAW say that a rogue should get the benefit of being an unseen attacker ? Remember that there are very often multiple rules that apply, so the hide action does not say that whoever takes it will get the benefit forever. And that section refers to [URL='http://no set of rules could reasonably account for every contingency. If the rules tried to do so, the game would become unplayable']this[/URL], and the sentence starts with "[B][U][COLOR=rgb(243, 121, 52)]IF[/COLOR][/U][/B] you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack..." So even if you take the hide action, and gain some benefits, because that specific benefit starts with an "IF", if it's not realised, then you do not get the benefit. No, but you said "So you set the difficulty to hide" which you actually do not, it's a contest so it's sort of set for you by the rules. No worry there, it was just to express the fact that you do not arbitrarily set a DC in this specific case. Exactly, what's the point of trying to be silent when the adversary knows exactly where you are and can watch that place ? Again, no one is forbidding it, but it seems pointless and the world should reflect it. Fortunately, the rules allow this 100% RAW. That's what I like about the stealth rules, they are fairly simple but cover lots of cases. The difference with the bush is that you do not need to pop out to fire that crossbow, you can do it from inside the bush, because not only can you see out of the bush to ascertain exactly where the target is, but your projectile can easily ignore leaves whereas it cannot ignore a stone pillar. So watching the bush is not going to allow the watcher any way to see you more clearly (and therefore make you lose your "hidden" status) before you shoot, and therefore the "IF" above resolves in favour of the rogue. Clear ? :) [/QUOTE]

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