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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8484730" data-attributes="member: 82106">And I would side with anyone who asserted that it would be a pretty degenerate case, generally, in 5e where a GM subverted the combat system in a really overt way (and lets not worry about things like Illusionism type force, like fudging rolls at this point). This is the point where 5e gets CLOSER to systematic, if you take a swing at some monster, the way the mechanics treat that IS fairly cut and dried, and likewise the deployment of spells and similar things. Outside of combat, then spells seem to have a stronger formal 'valence' than other actions, as they often have fairly standard defined effects which can't easily be subverted in most cases without making a mockery of the game aspect of things.And 4e can be read as a game that simply extended this to more parts of the game and to all PCs. Frankly this is an element of games like PbtAs as well, though the constraining mechanisms are quite different. 'Classic' D&amp;D just doesn't like to do it. One question is, in terms of RP, is your experience of/ability to RP degraded by deployment of what might be termed GM Force? I'd say the scope becomes more limited as we're basically talking about restricting the player to a smaller field of action.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8484730, member: 82106"] And I would side with anyone who asserted that it would be a pretty degenerate case, generally, in 5e where a GM subverted the combat system in a really overt way (and lets not worry about things like Illusionism type force, like fudging rolls at this point). This is the point where 5e gets CLOSER to systematic, if you take a swing at some monster, the way the mechanics treat that IS fairly cut and dried, and likewise the deployment of spells and similar things. Outside of combat, then spells seem to have a stronger formal 'valence' than other actions, as they often have fairly standard defined effects which can't easily be subverted in most cases without making a mockery of the game aspect of things. And 4e can be read as a game that simply extended this to more parts of the game and to all PCs. Frankly this is an element of games like PbtAs as well, though the constraining mechanisms are quite different. 'Classic' D&D just doesn't like to do it. One question is, in terms of RP, is your experience of/ability to RP degraded by deployment of what might be termed GM Force? I'd say the scope becomes more limited as we're basically talking about restricting the player to a smaller field of action. [/QUOTE]

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