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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8484991" data-attributes="member: 71699">I think the player is envisioning that their choices at character creation and advancement matter. So they expect if they are proficient and expert with Persuasion that this will matter. They have a high rules knowledge and anticipate that given they skillfully do the things laid out, they will most likely benefit from their proficiency and expertise in the form of more likely succeeding than failing in persuading the King, given it is as to some matter that I have confirmed they might be swayed on. They expect their chances to be better than the chances of the fighter, who has put nothing into abilities and skills that bear on social interaction.Let's clone them so we have B' and F' who are NPCs. Reciprocally then, the player expects B' to be more likely to persuade the party fighter of something, than F'. This is not the case if the rules are simply disregarded. DMs neutrality does considerable work here, as DM decides on rules and resolutions impartially. They have no stake in B' and F'. Player however has a stake in B.Certainty is binary: it isn't impinged on by greater or lesser ability. This is something helped by DM calling for a check even if that check is only informative. Because it can inform about how compelling B' is able to be, compared with F'. Further, and following something [USER=82106]@AbdulAlhazred[/USER] said, I believe that a compelling purpose for having game mechanics in our RP is to inform our narrative.DM narrates results, yes, but for me ideally players are also narrating results (their responses and further choices), building a shared narrative.I share your feelings on that case! They way I will put it is that when I read the text it does not say that roles in 5th edition should be symmetrical. From the outset, and all through, the role of player as player is differentiated from the role of player as DM. Perhaps less so than in previous versions, and with more awareness of opportunities for shared creation.It seems to me one player is given a different status, and symmetry is broken.</blockquote>

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