Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Roleplaying in D&D 5E: It’s How You Play the Game
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8485344" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>not sure what you are saying 'nope' to here. In my description of how 5e works I think I said basically exactly the same thing. You could intimidate the kobold, but the 'objective state' of the unrevealed backstory could make achieving your goal impossible. In DW this cannot happen, and that's the contrast. In 4e its more ambiguous, but I would say it is more like DW.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, now if we're talking about a check being made, which would match in 5e with 'uncertain', then the problem here is the 'valence problem' with 5e, it doesn't really say what 'success' entails, as a general game principle. However, my reading of various specific sections of the 5e DMG makes me believe that the principle is that the PC gets what they were after when they pass a check. If no success was possible, then the conditions requiring a check are not present. So we will have to disagree, though I do agree with you that 5e doesn't really prevent GMs from 'squibbing'. DW, for example, does though, you simply cannot deny the intent of a move that comes up with 10+. The REAL DIFFERENCE though is that nothing in DW is 'impossible' (or that is rare at least) because there isn't unrevealed backstory.</p><p></p><p>This would then be one of two cases. Either A) there is unrevealed backstory which makes it impossible (thus no check by RAW) or B) there's a problem with the description of the fiction. In case A either the action itself is impossible (the rope is rotten) or the action doesn't lead to any meaningful consequence and is thus still not worthy of a check. And if this is just a 'lets see if he hurts himself' kind of thing, well, this is why I don't really play 5e, such things are time wasters IMHO and don't contribute usefully to the game as I see it.</p><p></p><p>I use these examples to shed light on exactly what choices 5e is making in terms of how it envisages play to proceed.</p><p></p><p>Who can talk about what someone else thinks? The 5e rules DO however seem to state that, since the outcome was not in doubt, no check is required at all. Maybe my interpretation is wrong? I don't think so, but in this case I think what I'm talking about is what is on the printed page, lol.</p><p></p><p>In the case of the kobold though I doubt that was uncertain. In the case of the bar on the door, wouldn't a knock spell deal with that as well as the magic? I mean, OK, the bar being missing is a change in game state, but I am dubious about it being worth a check. Why do I care about climbing a tree? I mean, OK, if the tree leads to some location that is interesting, maybe. If not then who cares? The character comes back down, and we go on our way.</p><p></p><p>Well, I don't think we can discuss that except in the context of an AGENDA. So in a Gygaxian sort of approach then 'climb the tree' could be adjudicated on the simple principle of "roll to see if you fall on your head and take 3d6 damage from the fall or not." That CAN be compatible with an interpretation of 5e, you can use it that way. OTOH if the agenda is more 2e-like where the goal is "tell a story concocted by the GM and let the players provide characterization." then there's not really much use for the check, as it doesn't really bear on the story. Likewise with other forms of more cooperative story telling, the tree is irrelevant and a distraction, though I guess it could become more than that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8485344, member: 82106"] not sure what you are saying 'nope' to here. In my description of how 5e works I think I said basically exactly the same thing. You could intimidate the kobold, but the 'objective state' of the unrevealed backstory could make achieving your goal impossible. In DW this cannot happen, and that's the contrast. In 4e its more ambiguous, but I would say it is more like DW. Well, now if we're talking about a check being made, which would match in 5e with 'uncertain', then the problem here is the 'valence problem' with 5e, it doesn't really say what 'success' entails, as a general game principle. However, my reading of various specific sections of the 5e DMG makes me believe that the principle is that the PC gets what they were after when they pass a check. If no success was possible, then the conditions requiring a check are not present. So we will have to disagree, though I do agree with you that 5e doesn't really prevent GMs from 'squibbing'. DW, for example, does though, you simply cannot deny the intent of a move that comes up with 10+. The REAL DIFFERENCE though is that nothing in DW is 'impossible' (or that is rare at least) because there isn't unrevealed backstory. This would then be one of two cases. Either A) there is unrevealed backstory which makes it impossible (thus no check by RAW) or B) there's a problem with the description of the fiction. In case A either the action itself is impossible (the rope is rotten) or the action doesn't lead to any meaningful consequence and is thus still not worthy of a check. And if this is just a 'lets see if he hurts himself' kind of thing, well, this is why I don't really play 5e, such things are time wasters IMHO and don't contribute usefully to the game as I see it. I use these examples to shed light on exactly what choices 5e is making in terms of how it envisages play to proceed. Who can talk about what someone else thinks? The 5e rules DO however seem to state that, since the outcome was not in doubt, no check is required at all. Maybe my interpretation is wrong? I don't think so, but in this case I think what I'm talking about is what is on the printed page, lol. In the case of the kobold though I doubt that was uncertain. In the case of the bar on the door, wouldn't a knock spell deal with that as well as the magic? I mean, OK, the bar being missing is a change in game state, but I am dubious about it being worth a check. Why do I care about climbing a tree? I mean, OK, if the tree leads to some location that is interesting, maybe. If not then who cares? The character comes back down, and we go on our way. Well, I don't think we can discuss that except in the context of an AGENDA. So in a Gygaxian sort of approach then 'climb the tree' could be adjudicated on the simple principle of "roll to see if you fall on your head and take 3d6 damage from the fall or not." That CAN be compatible with an interpretation of 5e, you can use it that way. OTOH if the agenda is more 2e-like where the goal is "tell a story concocted by the GM and let the players provide characterization." then there's not really much use for the check, as it doesn't really bear on the story. Likewise with other forms of more cooperative story telling, the tree is irrelevant and a distraction, though I guess it could become more than that. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Roleplaying in D&D 5E: It’s How You Play the Game
Top