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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8492607" data-attributes="member: 82106">Which I believe is basically the canonical response, lol. I'd say the 'sword breaks' is a bit on the harsh side, though it may depend on the situation. I mean, is there some reason to believe the PC is not now in a hopeless situation? If that's the case, then lead on, but the 'fan of the characters' (GM) probably should be willing to give them some sort of, perhaps costly, 'out'. Yeah, I mean it really isn't hugely different from, say, putting the heroic tier PCs in the presence of an ancient huge red dragon. Clearly fighting isn't an option in that case! As I said above, there needs to be an 'out', and in the case of the Duke there is, you have to use diplomacy. My objection to the Duke scenario was that it was like a linear plot, it can only go one way and the 'walls' feel more like rails than obstacles to overcome. So I judge things often by INTENT.Right, so in relation to 5e, what I see is that its a game where the shape of process that the game lays out is vulnerable to the erection of these sorts of 'walls'. Put in classical terms, the DM has a very nasty sweet trap over in corridor C. Every time the PCs venture in any other direction the adjudication of whatever obstacle appears discourages further progress in that direction. Now, in a really pure incarnation, it comes out as pretty acceptable, that's simply the path which the evil mastermind intended to draw the foolish PCs into taking. The DM might have drawn this up, but overall its just a challenge, albeit one that showcases a particular trap. However, in more complex scenarios this does often verge into what I would label as 'force', and we start to lose player autonomy. As you say, each table has to sort this out in its own way, and not surprisingly they often choose to employ different sets of rules as a consequence. Honestly, I'd find 5e vastly more palatable if WotC would just publish a variation that was intended to play like a good Story Game.</blockquote>

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