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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8497882" data-attributes="member: 16814">I don't understand what you're trying to say here, it seems loaded with jargon that's notoriously misunderstood and/or used in arbitrary ways.Again, I'm confused by this.  Fictional means fictional.  Everything in play is fictional, or represents fictional things.  There's no ambiguity to what fictional means here.  The cliff example is fictional in all regards.  The game is not managing real world social interactions here.  You claim to not be creating a dichotomous argument, but your confusion over what dramatic means as used by [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] seems to have slipped into assuming it's something exclusive to other things.  Further that [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] said "dramatic" but somehow that's morphed into "narrative" seems to be confusing things.Dramatic needs are those that go to what a character cares about, wants, fears, or needs.  As I say above, if going from point A to point B is just a scenery change, then there's no dramatic need and no need to look for or create obstacles to said travel.  If there is, then there is.  This has little to do with your arguments about ludic vs dramatic framework (dramatic doing different work here).  In a more traditional game, though, the GM may have placed an obstacle and so it must now be dealt with even though there are no real stakes involved in moving from point A to point B.  Both of these are dealing with the same "causality" in the fiction -- ie, none except that which is imagined.  Since imagination is capable of quite a bit, the end result of whether or not the cliff feels believable is only a matter of instantiation, not really approach.</blockquote>

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