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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8498118" data-attributes="member: 71699">The dichotomy is to say the fiction is not in the numbers, words, maps, but elsewhere. In the cloud. As cues includes mechanics I think it is ludic. Without, we'd have improv, right?The situation worsens and the group encounter the awful cliffs, which the DM marks on their shared map. The group wonders if they can’t scale the cliffs due to their dramatic motives (you started with &quot;narrative&quot; and I took [USER=82106]@AbdulAlhazred[/USER]'s suggestion and switched to &quot;dramatic&quot; which it looks like you are okay with.) DM said roll.Later, turning back on their path they come back to the cliffs which have been established as difficult to climb and dangerously high. This seems like a typical D&amp;D situation. In the fiction there are cliffs. In the game cues there are cliffs. That is a dichotomy I question.To get at it from another angle, it's not my experience that my D&amp;D groups act for reasons that are not dramatic. They never as [USER=16814]@Ovinomancer[/USER] put it climb the cliffs just for the sake of getting to the top. So I wonder what the special nature of the dramatic is, under SYOR?When I model out D&amp;D I see that DM narrates results because in DM, fiction - hidden and revealed - is unified with game cues (which I think contain or have valency to fiction so that a change to them can be a change to fiction.) Only DM is in position to narrate the RPG state.So I think something else is going on in SYOR. You appeared to hedge on DW implying a DM might SNOE (say no or expand) on matters other than a PCs fiction (which I think fronts could at times oblige.) I continue to feel that the case isn't simply black and white - you're doing SYOR or you are not - but mixed. If not why not?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 8498118, member: 71699"] The dichotomy is to say the fiction is not in the numbers, words, maps, but elsewhere. In the cloud. As cues includes mechanics I think it is ludic. Without, we'd have improv, right? The situation worsens and the group encounter the awful cliffs, which the DM marks on their shared map. The group wonders if they can’t scale the cliffs due to their dramatic motives (you started with "narrative" and I took [USER=82106]@AbdulAlhazred[/USER]'s suggestion and switched to "dramatic" which it looks like you are okay with.) DM said roll. Later, turning back on their path they come back to the cliffs which have been established as difficult to climb and dangerously high. This seems like a typical D&D situation. In the fiction there are cliffs. In the game cues there are cliffs. That is a dichotomy I question. To get at it from another angle, it's not my experience that my D&D groups act for reasons that are not dramatic. They never as [USER=16814]@Ovinomancer[/USER] put it climb the cliffs just for the sake of getting to the top. So I wonder what the special nature of the dramatic is, under SYOR? When I model out D&D I see that DM narrates results because in DM, fiction - hidden and revealed - is unified with game cues (which I think contain or have valency to fiction so that a change to them can be a change to fiction.) Only DM is in position to narrate the RPG state. So I think something else is going on in SYOR. You appeared to hedge on DW implying a DM might SNOE (say no or expand) on matters other than a PCs fiction (which I think fronts could at times oblige.) I continue to feel that the case isn't simply black and white - you're doing SYOR or you are not - but mixed. If not why not? [/QUOTE]

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