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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8500603" data-attributes="member: 82106">Well, narrative type games have to give the players SOME role, otherwise it would be a pretty uninteresting game (I mean, Tic Tac Toe is usually labeled as a game, but as an example of one where choices literally do not matter I think we can agree it is a pretty degenerate case). So, yes, pretty much of necessity narratively focused Story Games provide some mechanism by which the players can make choices about what elements of the fiction serve as things like dramatic needs, stakes, character flaws, antagonists, etc. Something a player does, probably mediated by the rules, will allow for this, in general.I don't think there's any sense in which games have to be one or the other, it is more a matter of game culture that there is seen to be any significant divide. So, classic D&D pretty much eschewed the idea of players having a formal role in anything beyond deciding the actions of their designated PCs (and rolling dice). Even classic D&D though has non-fictional elements, like hit points, which players use to reason AS THE CHARACTER (IE I'm going to stop here and let the cleric cure me because my hit points are low, not 'because I've run out of luck' or 'because I am tired', etc.). AD&D 2e added on a concept of motivation "I'm going to steal that sack of gold because as a thief I get XP for doing that." but it really doesn't change things much. We do get a different sort of concept with 4e though, where the players and GM are asked to use dramatic considerations to structure play. The player selects a LOT of things about their PC which have attached backstory (or they can reflavor it, but it is always assumed SOME FLAVOR exists). This flavor is then fed into the Quest inventing mechanism where the player comes up with things to do which will act as XP sources. Once XP is gained, more character stuff is acquired and the loop continues. The GM is also supposed to 'say yes or roll' and 'skip to the action', and various other such statements which indicate the game is to focus on narrative story concerns. SCs also fit in here, as they ONLY MAKE SENSE as narrative devices (IE it would be preposterous to propose that slipping on the ice, then later getting lost, and then finally failing to spot the campfire smoke somehow lead in a cause-and-effect way to the Princess choosing to marry the Duke, yet this is exactly how SCs work).</blockquote>

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