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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8500635" data-attributes="member: 82106">I believe [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] noted at least once that cues are of at least 2 types, those which are referenced in order to aid in constructing the fiction (IE things like what is written on your character sheet) and things which mediate the arbitration of fiction generation (IE dice, which indicate different action outcomes stochastically). While one might want to make some distinctions there, perhaps, I haven't seen where this would be pivotal in the overall discussion. They can both profitably fit within a category of 'stuff that is used to play the game', right?Eh, everything ultimately resists complete definition. I think this is because 'om gate gate paragate parasamgate, Bodhi soha!' essentially (the universe is devoid of intrinsic semantics and is thuse 'gate', or 'empty'). I think we've done a pretty reasonable job of systematizing them however. Certainly there are various points of view, and I've no doubt new ones can and will emerge. Yet, I think if we simply reflect on what we do, we are not dissatisfied with our motivations for doing it, nor do we have great doubts about what attracts us to our favored play experiences. If I close my eyes and imagine playing, I can see plainly why I do things a certain way and I can gain a fair amount of insight about it.I'm not sure what they mean by that. Games certainly produce characteristic narratives. I understand, some people would like to analyze something like "White Plume Mountain played with core 1e AD&D rules" as a sort of abstract 'game entity' and say things about it. OK, sure. IMHO that is more like looking at the Globe Theater and the script for 'As you Like It' and analyzing that, which is certainly feasible. You will probably conclude certain things, but you will not have experienced watching As You Like It in the Globe Theater! Now, obviously a play is more passive than an RPG, so maybe you'd need to analyze playing the lead role as opposed to just watching. I would never argue that participating in a game of the above mentioned adventure/RPG is the same type of experience exactly, but I have played enough sessions of RPGs at this point (1000's) to have a pretty good idea what they consist of. Playing one produces a narrative, which has probably got some elements of dramatic story. Now, maybe in the future the range of RPG play will extend to a wider range of types (IE there could be historical reenactment for instance, or political commentary, etc.). That range to some extent already exists and has for 150 years though.I'm OK with that, but I don't really need an argument. A narrative IMHO is a recounting of play (narration). I think its possible this is enough for some games, perhaps, but as I said before, RPGs really need drama, or some other set of 'rules' by which fiction and game process have a two way conversation. Classic D&D has one, Story Games have some, yes others may arise/have arisen. I'd note that since most other possible uses of games involve something akin to simulation (IE wargames like Kriegspiels) MOST of them are a bit D&D-like in wanting the factors involved to tie back to real world 'stuff' pretty cleanly. OTOH there are 'therapy games' (as an example) which don't do that at all and are not about telling a story, at least that is not their goal.Sure, I just distinguish RPGs as being games where the DRAMATIC figures back into the rules/state/process of play, at least for Story Games. Even D&D isn't quite like Senet though in terms of having an infinite game state mediated through a very loose set of rules. This is certainly a qualitative difference, no? I argue without seeing that qualitative difference, a framework which analyzes RPGs is missing critical factors. So I am advocating for going to that extra level of detail.Oh, well there is a thread, [USER=82504]@Garthanos[/USER] and [USER=2093]@Gilladian[/USER] have been playing a bit lately. We're wandering in 'figuring out mechanics' land these days I think. Seems like another player or two wouldn't hurt. lol.</blockquote>

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