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<blockquote data-quote="Mustrum_Ridcully" data-source="post: 4658850" data-attributes="member: 710">I think the designers expected that the optimizing of the party would become the min-maxing goal. The entire system allows for synergies between different PCs. I am not sure if they predicted how big the power difference could be (I think that's hardly possible, unless there are actually only very few &quot;hidden variables&quot; that hide behind the powers abilities), but they might have thought that this wouldn't be an issue. If the min-maxing is possible for just one PC, there are power differences that can irk some players and cause problems for the DM. If the entire party is optimized, the DM just can take from that that he can throw harder encounters at them - it's not like he has to avoid targeting weak characters or anything. (In fact, it becomes more important that he does hit the weak spots.)---The roles work well, but it's also obvious that most classes perform a &quot;secondary role&quot;. The roles are also realized in different ways for the classes. It's typically easiest with Strikers and Leaders - Leaders get their healing powers, Strikers get their extra damage. But Leaders also have some subtle differences, even within the same class. The Warlord is the best example.- Inspiring Warlords grant lots of healing and saves. They are a &quot;defensive&quot; build.- Tactical Warlords grant a lot offensive bonuses. Extra attacks and attack &amp; damage bonuses. Incidentally: If you want to help minimize &quot;grind&quot;, ensure that you have a Tactical Warlord and a Striker or Defender good at basic melee attacks, e.g. Barbarians, Fighters, Avenging Paladins or Rangers. Defenders main &quot;shtick&quot; is not AoOs. It is their ability to &quot;motivate&quot; their enemies to attack them instead of someone else in the party. The Paladin might say &quot;Strike me Instead&quot;, the Fighter says: &quot;If you don't, I'll hit you twice as hard!&quot;, the Swordmage (Shielding) says: &quot;You don't deal damage to them anyway&quot;. Someone asked why the roles forbid his Wizard to be a &quot;Defender&quot;. That is simply because the Wizard never was the guy that said &quot;hit me!&quot;. Yes, he &quot;defended&quot; the party by disabling enemies, granting them defensive bonuses. But that is a mix of control and leadership. The only Wizard that said &quot;hit me&quot; was the Fighter/Wizard (Eldritch Knight, Mageblade, Duskblade and so on) and in 4E is the Swordmage.Even the core Wizard still has some &quot;leadership&quot; capabilities, but they tie in with his control features. He can grant Energy Resistance, Invisibility, Damage Resistance, or grant defensive bonuses from spells like Displacement.The shtick of Controllers is to decide how the enemy can react to the party. Scorcing Burst says &quot;don't bunch up&quot;, Magic Missile says: &quot;We don't want no stinking artillery&quot;, Thunderwave says &quot;I am not the target here, but the tough guy over there might want a word with you.&quot; Illusory Ambush says &quot;Now is not a good time to use your stronger but limited powers.&quot;(The wizards only problem for some seems to be that maybe his powers might need to get a little louder in what they say... I am eagerly waiting for PHB 2 and Arcane Power to see how this can be done)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mustrum_Ridcully, post: 4658850, member: 710"] I think the designers expected that the optimizing of the party would become the min-maxing goal. The entire system allows for synergies between different PCs. I am not sure if they predicted how big the power difference could be (I think that's hardly possible, unless there are actually only very few "hidden variables" that hide behind the powers abilities), but they might have thought that this wouldn't be an issue. If the min-maxing is possible for just one PC, there are power differences that can irk some players and cause problems for the DM. If the entire party is optimized, the DM just can take from that that he can throw harder encounters at them - it's not like he has to avoid targeting weak characters or anything. (In fact, it becomes more important that he does hit the weak spots.) --- The roles work well, but it's also obvious that most classes perform a "secondary role". The roles are also realized in different ways for the classes. It's typically easiest with Strikers and Leaders - Leaders get their healing powers, Strikers get their extra damage. But Leaders also have some subtle differences, even within the same class. The Warlord is the best example. - Inspiring Warlords grant lots of healing and saves. They are a "defensive" build. - Tactical Warlords grant a lot offensive bonuses. Extra attacks and attack & damage bonuses. Incidentally: If you want to help minimize "grind", ensure that you have a Tactical Warlord and a Striker or Defender good at basic melee attacks, e.g. Barbarians, Fighters, Avenging Paladins or Rangers. Defenders main "shtick" is not AoOs. It is their ability to "motivate" their enemies to attack them instead of someone else in the party. The Paladin might say "Strike me Instead", the Fighter says: "If you don't, I'll hit you twice as hard!", the Swordmage (Shielding) says: "You don't deal damage to them anyway". Someone asked why the roles forbid his Wizard to be a "Defender". That is simply because the Wizard never was the guy that said "hit me!". Yes, he "defended" the party by disabling enemies, granting them defensive bonuses. But that is a mix of control and leadership. The only Wizard that said "hit me" was the Fighter/Wizard (Eldritch Knight, Mageblade, Duskblade and so on) and in 4E is the Swordmage. Even the core Wizard still has some "leadership" capabilities, but they tie in with his control features. He can grant Energy Resistance, Invisibility, Damage Resistance, or grant defensive bonuses from spells like Displacement. The shtick of Controllers is to decide how the enemy can react to the party. Scorcing Burst says "don't bunch up", Magic Missile says: "We don't want no stinking artillery", Thunderwave says "I am not the target here, but the tough guy over there might want a word with you." Illusory Ambush says "Now is not a good time to use your stronger but limited powers." [size=1] (The wizards only problem for some seems to be that maybe his powers might need to get a little louder in what they say... I am eagerly waiting for PHB 2 and Arcane Power to see how this can be done) [/size] [/QUOTE]

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