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<blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 4667793" data-attributes="member: 5143">I agree with the rest of what you said, but this is really the heart of the matter.&nbsp; The fantasy genre has had really strong archetypes for a while.&nbsp; People who are used to playing very early editions of D&amp;D are used to Thieves who used daggers and wore light armor, Wizards who wore no armor and had staffs and wands, Fighters who wore the heavy armor and fought in melee, and so on.&nbsp; They were archetypes that were used in Fantasy stories for a long time and the game enforced them.I know I played D&amp;D for a long time without ever thinking &quot;I wish my fighter could cast spells.&quot;&nbsp; It never even occurred to me.&nbsp; Fighters fight.&nbsp; Wizards cast spells.&nbsp; If I want to cast spells, I play a Wizard.Until 3e, the concept of being able to pick and choose EXACTLY what character I wanted to play was rather foreign to me.&nbsp; I didn't like the point based systems I played all that much, way too complicated to make up characters and you always ended up with a character who was unfocused and substandard most of the time.&nbsp; It was much more fun(for me) to say &quot;I'm a Thief, I sneak around and stab people in the back and pick people's pockets.&nbsp; Now, let's see if we survive the Temple of Elemental Evil.&quot;I think 4e is returning more to that style of play while still offering more flexibility and customization than before.&nbsp; If you are a rogue, you still sneak around and stab people in vital spots but you determine if you are big and strong or agile and charismatic.I've never had a problem with this, but I approach the game from the point of view of &quot;What options do I have?&quot; instead of &quot;What do I want to play?&quot;.&nbsp; It's more of a &quot;Which of these themes is the most fun to play?&quot; than &quot;How can I twist the options in the book to make exactly the character I want?&quot;It is certainly true that roles in 4e are much more defined.&nbsp; They matter much more.&nbsp; Classes in 3e were more menus of powers that could be combined together to make a concept.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Majoru Oakheart, post: 4667793, member: 5143"] I agree with the rest of what you said, but this is really the heart of the matter. The fantasy genre has had really strong archetypes for a while. People who are used to playing very early editions of D&D are used to Thieves who used daggers and wore light armor, Wizards who wore no armor and had staffs and wands, Fighters who wore the heavy armor and fought in melee, and so on. They were archetypes that were used in Fantasy stories for a long time and the game enforced them. I know I played D&D for a long time without ever thinking "I wish my fighter could cast spells." It never even occurred to me. Fighters fight. Wizards cast spells. If I want to cast spells, I play a Wizard. Until 3e, the concept of being able to pick and choose EXACTLY what character I wanted to play was rather foreign to me. I didn't like the point based systems I played all that much, way too complicated to make up characters and you always ended up with a character who was unfocused and substandard most of the time. It was much more fun(for me) to say "I'm a Thief, I sneak around and stab people in the back and pick people's pockets. Now, let's see if we survive the Temple of Elemental Evil." I think 4e is returning more to that style of play while still offering more flexibility and customization than before. If you are a rogue, you still sneak around and stab people in vital spots but you determine if you are big and strong or agile and charismatic. I've never had a problem with this, but I approach the game from the point of view of "What options do I have?" instead of "What do I want to play?". It's more of a "Which of these themes is the most fun to play?" than "How can I twist the options in the book to make exactly the character I want?" It is certainly true that roles in 4e are much more defined. They matter much more. Classes in 3e were more menus of powers that could be combined together to make a concept. [/QUOTE]

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