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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5735110" data-attributes="member: 42582">No worries. In case it wasn't obvious, I like to talk about my game!Anyway, I think that 4e lends itself to being seen as two distinct "games" - the combat game, and the "real" game. My goal as a GM has been to marry these two games, using a range of techniques to make the "real" game speak to the combat game, and vice versa. The thread I linked to about the negotiations with Kas is one example of that. And I think that 4e has a whole lot of tools to support this (more than other versions of D&D, more than Rolemaster or Runequest).But I think it is a mistake on WotC's part not to give more indication - in their rulebooks, in their web columns, etc - of how this can be done, and of how the tools that the designers have provided can be used. There are occasional hints and ideas in Chris Perkins' columns, but that's about as far as it goes.EDIT: Another thought, which also relates to "roles as a straightjacket". In the story about Derrik, above, how did it come about that some dwarves came looking for the warpriest? Well, when the players took their paragon paths, Derrik didn't have a holy symbol. So I thought it would be good to get him one, now that he was a Warpriest. And so I came up with the idea of the injured dwarves being told of his location by an angel. It was only when I actually started running the scene that I decided to play up his background and have a bit of fun with it.But by putting the player on the spot like this, I oblige him to respond with what he's got on his character sheet and between his ears. He doesn't get to choose whether or not the party "face" handles the encounter - if Derrik doesn't step up in some fashion or other, he's more-or-less conceding that he's still the latrine-cleaning nobody that he was when he left the dwarfhold to become an adventurer.To generalise a bit: if you want your players to break out of their preferred roles, set up situations - whether in combat, or out of combat - that make them choose: step up to the challenge, even if you're not optimised for it, or let your PC take a hosing within the context of the fiction. My players tend to step up, because they're there to play the game. (And they like to try and turn the tables - to make the situation that was meant to challenge them, become one that serves them. When it comes to Derrik's "lordship", they've done this pretty well, even though I'm still trying as best I can to turn it back onto them again. All this is playing the game too.)</blockquote>

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