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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5739152" data-attributes="member: 22779">If combat role, as you claim, is hard wired to an archetype, then how can an archetype not include a combat role?My argument is, combat role has nothing whatsoever to do with archetype.A warlock could include fifteen different kinds of archetypes - lone wolf, scholar, mad scientist, member of a coven, etc.  How he operates best in combat has nothing to do with that archetype.Let's spin it around then.  How does dealing lots of damage (plus status effects since we're talking about a warlock) have anything to do with the fact that I'm a dabbler in mystic arts, making pacts with out planar beings? Yet, my warlock can have arcana trained as well.  And, pouring over grimoires is hardly solely a wizard archetype.  After all, warlocks are "armed with esoteric secrets and dangerous lore".  So, I can make a warlock the fits pretty much any wizard archetype you want to name.And vice versa.  Why can't a wizard fit any warlock archetype?  After all, both are "wizards" in the traditional sense of the word - users of magic.  Any wizard archetype you want to come up with can be done with a warlock.I would point out that Arcana is an option for a wizard as well.  He doesn't gain it as a bonus feat.  In fact, you don't even need arcana to be a wizard.  You get Ritual Casting as a bonus feat, but, rituals don't need Arcana to be used.  Again, we see how misreading the rules actually leads to false premises.Skill wise, there is some variation, and there should be, these are different classes after all.  But, it would be pretty easy to make a warlock or a wizard with the same skill set.Weapon and armor differences?  Hrm, warlocks can use leather and wizards get orbs.  Yeah, seeing that huge gulf of difference there.My point is, any "wizard archetype" (by this I mean caster of magic that isn't a priest, not the class) can be filled pretty interchangeably by warlock or wizard.  But, in combat, these two characters will play out very differently. And, right there, you're tying archetype to role again, despite the fact that these two things are not connected in any way.</blockquote>Yeah, I gotta admit I'm pretty confused.  Apparently role is quantum in that it can be both connected and not connected to archetype at the same time, and only becomes a problem when observed by certain observers.Which is it?  Is Role (the 4e defined term) a purely combat role, (again as the PHB distinctly defines the term) or has 4e indelibly linked combat Role to archetype?[/QUOTE]

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