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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5739296" data-attributes="member: 22779">Because, JamesonCourage, the second you do that, you've just exploded the number of elements you need for each class.For example, take something as simple as hit dice.  Now, if you make your figher a controller, then he has low hit points and poor armor.  Is he still a "fighter"?  What is a "fighter"?Or, flip it around and make the wizard a defender.  Now your wizard has high hit points, wears heavy armor and uses the best weapons.  How is he a wizard?Class and role are indelibly linked.  Fighters are mostly defenders with a heavy dose of striker thrown in.  Is that really all that different from how fighters have always been presented?If you divorce class from role, then what's left of class?  After all, all the mechanical aspects, which generally revolve around combat, are linked to combat role.  Or, putting it another way, once you strip away hit dice, armor and weapons from a fighter class, what's left?But this is all considerably orthagonal to the link that people are making between role and archetype.  Combat roles and archetypes are only tenuously linked, typically through the medium of class.  My fighter is a noble knight out to right wrongs (archetype) and does so using defender powers in combat (combat role). Although, thinking about it, I suppose it's six of one, half dozen of the other.  Do you switch out role or class name?  Does it matter at the end of the day?  Archer Dude works best as a ranger, which is a striker.  Now, striker and Archer Dude fit pretty well together - fast, lightly armored, doing lots of damage to one (or a small number of) target.  I'd argue that it's a lot easier to switch out the name fighter for ranger than it is to switch out the roles.  Because, as I said, once you strip out all combat mechanics from a class, what's left?  And, again, that's not edition specific.  You strip out the combat mechanics of a fighter in any edition and there isn't much left.  At best you've got a couple of non-weapon proficiencies and possibly followers at high level, or a very small selection of skills.Neither of those things scream fighter to me.</blockquote>

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