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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 5742480" data-attributes="member: 48965">I totally agree with this... with the added factor that class defines "how" you do things.  Because, mechanically, classes provide different ways to perform combat roles as well as mechanics like skills, weapon & armor proficiencies, class abilities, and so on. Outside of mechanics they provide different fluff that is backed up with the particular mechanics of different classes.  As an example, in 4e the avenger, rogue, warlock, slayer, blackguard, ranger, etc. are all under the combat role of striker, but according to your logic above there's no need for all of these seperate classes... Yet I would argue you are wrong because each of these classes provides different fiction and mechanics, (along with different ways to enact their combat role) for a player to use within the game.  Again, then you are arguing that not only is there no mechanical difference between any of the classes I listed above but that there is also no mechanical difference in builds that fall under the same class and have the same combat role either... Honestly, I think quite a few advocates of 4e would argue that this is patently false though.  You do realize that the wizard, hunter(ranger), and invoker are all controllers in 4e... right? Yet they don't seem to fall into the situation you've presented as inevitable here.   I think what I've posted above addresses his issue pretty well. Just one other note though... class =/= combat role, combat role is one of many things attached to class.  Ok, ignoring the fact that the games you list give much more freedom than just the decision of combat role in the game and just focussing on that particular aspect... Uhmmm, no. Even now 4e is tossing combat role out when it comes to new builds and classes (I mean we even have our first dual-role build in the berserker)... so for all practical purposes they've just chosen a much longer and bloated route to get to the same destination as the games you list. The main difference being that D&D chose/chooses to attach archetype, fiction and particular class abilities to explicit combat roles while those other games don't. So in one you need 10 books to cover the breadth of what the other does in one or two books.</blockquote>

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