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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 6864408" data-attributes="member: 6787650">I've already conceded that Wimpy Kid is redundant when Super Dave is in the party, and therefore I didn't feel the need to nitpick your math at the time--but now you're claiming to have "proven" that Wimpy Kid is 50% as effective in combat as Super Dave, and I take exception to that claim because you haven't proven anything of the sort.Your numbers cover first through third level before they get any ASIs. You can't pretend to analyze a 10th level character without actually analyzing a 10th level character. Plugging in the correct number of ASIs for your identical builds is the minimum you would do for a good analysis. Look, I'll do the analysis for you, against AC 15:1st level:Wimpy Kid has +7 to hit, hits 65% of the time for d8+3, does 5.1 damage per round on average including crits. He's 69% as effective as Super Dave.Super Dave has +9 to hit, hits 75% of the time for d8+5, does 7.35 damage per round on average including crits. He's 45% more effective than Wimpy Kid.4th level: both of them take SharpshooterWimpy Kid has +2 to hit, hits 40% of the time for d8+13, does 7.23 damage per round on average including crits. He's 72% as effective as Super Dave.Super Dave has +4 to hit, hits 50% of the time for d8+15, does 9.98 damage per round on average including crits. He's 38% more effective than Wimpy Kid.6th level: Let's say Wimpy Kid takes either +2 Dex or Crossbow Expert [using the official ruling on CE, which I dislike but most people use]. Super Dave just takes Crossbow Expert.Wimpy Kid [crossbow configuration] has +3 to hit and 3 attacks for d6+13. He now does 22.8 damage per round including crits. He's 73% as effective as Super Dave.Wimpy Kid [Dex 18 configuration] has +4 to hit and 2 attacks for d8+14. He does 18.95 damage per round including crits. He's 61% as effective as Super Dave.Super Dave has +5 to hit and 3 attacks for d6+15. He does 31.05 damage per round including crits. He's still 36% more effective than Wimpy Kid [crossbow] but 64% more effective than Wimpy Kid [crossbow].8th level: Wimpy Kid takes +2 Dex. Super Dave takes [??? Resilient Wis?]Wimpy Kid [Dex 18 crossbow configuration] has +4 to hit and 3 attacks for d6+14. He now does 26.78 damage per round including crits. He's 86% as effective as Super Dave.Wimpy Kid [Dex 20 configuration] has +5 to hit and 2 attacks for d8+15. He does 21.9 damage per round including crits. He's 71% as effective as Super Dave.Super Dave has +5 to hit and 3 attacks for d6+15. He still does 31.05 damage per round including crits. He's still 16% more effective than Wimpy Kid [crossbow] but 41% more effective than Wimpy Kid [crossbow], and he is better at resisting madness/fear/etc.10th level:Wimpy Kid [Dex 18 crossbow configuration] has +5 to hit and 3 attacks for d6+14. He now does 29.4 damage per round including crits. He's 87% as effective as super Dave.Wimpy Kid [Dex 20 configuration] has +6 to hit and 2 attacks for d8+15. He does 23.85 damage per round including crits. He's 70% as effective as Super Dave.Super Dave has +6 to hit and 3 attacks for d6+15. He does 33.83 damage per round including crits. He's still 15% more effective than Wimpy Kid [crossbow] but 42% more effective than Wimpy Kid [crossbow], and he is better at resisting madness/fear/etc.You've claimed that "I've shown that Wimpy is half as effective at filling the combat roll as Super Dave". So far you actually haven't done so, but here's your chance: propose something Super Dave could do differently (maybe a different feat choice at 8th level) that would boost his advantage from 15% to 100%, or else just admit that you were talking mostly about the defensive advantages of better HP and saving throws and not about any offensive advantages. Defensive advantages tend to be fairly unimportant for ranged characters compared to offensive advantages because the most important advantage (being far away/out of the effect radius) comes into play more often than saving throws/etc.You're the one who claimed that Wimpy Kid was virtually unplayable. Not only have I shown a viable build that can come out of the very stats you rejected as unplayable, but it turns out that even when we analyze the very Super Dave and Wimpy Kid characters that you yourself invented, their differences turn out to be pretty minor, a matter of degree rather than kind. Everybody acknowledges that Wimpy Kid isn't needed if Super Dave is already in the party, but you know what? Super Dave isn't needed either if Wimpy Kid is in the party. Instead of wasting those stats on yet another archer, how about making something novel? Super Dave would make a great warbearian, which both complements Wimpy Kid's abilities and fills a new niche in the party.</blockquote>

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