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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ratskinner" data-source="post: 5977457" data-attributes="member: 6688937">I definitely agree here, and I think this was the mistake. It seems to me that the thoughtlines went something like "We want D&D to run online. MMOs run online. Therefore, we should adopt MMO stuff." The problem is, I think, that they adopted all the wrong stuff, in an attempt to force players onto an online system that never materialized fully.With the exception of skill challenges. I can see programming all of the things you mentioned, and I really don't see how they indicate anything that requires at-table narrative mediation at all. They may require at-table decision making for the DM/players (choosing targets, directions, etc.), but that's not the same as requiring narrative from players to resolve. Also, I find it unusual that a 4e fan would take your position on "fluff." Years ago, when people complained about 4e's rather strict take on playstyle, they were often told to just "refluff the power". Which shouldn't be possible, if the narrative fluff is vital to the resolution of the powers. Refluffing should, in that case, cause 4e's careful balance to break. I'm not an expert on 4e by any means. I ran it for two years before my group kinda split over it. Nonetheless, when I hear people complain about their ability to "trip" a gelatinous cube or the like, it gives me serious doubt about how tightly integrated combat/power mechanics and fiction/story elements are. None of those elements you mention are particularly unique to 4e, and are pretty obviously descendant from 3e (prestige classes) and earlier editions (race/class). I don't think any of them had indie-game origins (though I could be wrong on that.)When I think of games that tightly integrate fiction and mechanics, no version of D&D rises to the top. That's okay, too. D&D's unique origins give it a bizarre special position where the rules don't quite apply to it as they might to other games. D&D does have its own unique set of tropes, maybe even themes and story elements. I don't question that at all. I've run a lot of other games....sometimes I think too many. It sounds to me like we have similar perspectives on the importance of story and narrative, but you have a more gamist or simulationist bend than I do. Which is not a big deal.</blockquote>

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