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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7705792" data-attributes="member: 4937">You are being far to generous here.&nbsp; These movies were discussed in detail for hours before they decided on a direction for the script, and lots of people got input.&nbsp; If you think at some point the implications we are discussing here won't discussed, I feel that's incredibly naïve.&nbsp; No, I can tell you the sorts of conversations that were had.&nbsp; People sitting at that table said things like:&quot;We don't want to be laden down with a lot of canon.&quot;&quot;I need to have complete artistic freedom.&quot;&quot;It needs to have elements that are familiar to the fans.&nbsp; The reason they didn't like The Phantom Menace is that it had too many new elements.&quot;&quot;Fundamentally, the really good story, the story that people want to hear has already been done.&nbsp; The only way to recapture the magic is reboot everything from scratch.&nbsp; That way, we can then redo the core narrative of Star Wars - but in a new way.&quot;&quot;This has to be the story of a new generation of heroes.&nbsp; We can't have the old generation of heroes in the way or solving their problems.&nbsp; The best way to do that is if the old generation of heroes has failed.&nbsp; That tidies up everything.&nbsp; It explains why we need new heroes.&nbsp; It explains why there is a problem.&quot;&quot;By its very nature, a sequel to the OT was bound to reverse what the heroes achieved.&quot;&quot;Kids these days, they don't want things to be black and white.&nbsp; These movies have to be dark and gritty.&nbsp; Complex.&nbsp; Morally complex.&nbsp; With flawed characters.&quot;Or course, all that is hogswill, but that or something like it is how the conversations had to go, or you'd never end up with TFA.&nbsp; Four people worked on that script.&nbsp; A dozen people signed off on it.&nbsp;&nbsp; Probably none of them actually said, &quot;I'm going to burn down the originally trilogy and assassinate the beloved character's character.&nbsp; I'm going to murder them far more thoroughly than just sticking a lightsaber through them.&nbsp; I'm going to render them failed, pathetic, moral degenerates, bereft of hope or honor.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; But while they never came right out and said it, that's exactly what they plotted to do and worked at doing with great fervor.&nbsp;&nbsp; TFA is no 'ooopsy'.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's not the work of one amateur kid in the basement somewhere thoughtless writing up a script, and then going, &quot;You know, I never thought of it like that.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; This was a deliberate slate cleaning.And someone involved was acting with deliberate malice.&nbsp; There is Sith work in this.I totally reject that.&nbsp; It's possible to make a movie be entirely bleak without being mean-spirited, without having bad deaths, and without having the opposite of redemption.&nbsp;&nbsp; Characters can die, people can be mourned, battles can be lost, but without compromising honor and without telling a nihilistic story of evil's eternal triumph.&nbsp; Whether something is bleak is not a matter of its physical reality, but a matter of its spiritual reality.&nbsp; This is true in all stories, but its especially true in a fantasy where you reifying the symbols into tangible things.At the end of 'Return of the Jedi', the rebels had made a great triumph over the Emperor.&nbsp; But, the galaxy was still divided, the Empire largely undefeated, the whorl wasted from 50 years of civil war and conflict and mismanagement, and more importantly the light had gone out of the universe.&nbsp;&nbsp; All the problems at the end of the prequels that allowed the Sith to take over were still there.&nbsp; People lacked hope.&nbsp; The galaxy was filled with corruption and nepotism.&nbsp; Slavery was tolerated.&nbsp; The guardians of the light had failed in their wisdom, becoming almost morally indistinguishable from the Sith.&nbsp;&nbsp; The Jedi are all but gone from the universe.&nbsp;&nbsp; There are still extraordinary challenges to overcome that are ahead that don't involve destroying all resemblance of forward progress.&nbsp;&nbsp; Most of the extended universe stories are really bad, and they focus far too much on super-weapons as if there was only one fantasy plot and it always involved a dragon, and they never really developed new characters the way that they should have, and they stayed way too stuck on family matters - as if there is only one sort of twist you can have in a plot and it involves someone being secretly related to someone else.&nbsp;&nbsp; But... TPA had all those problems anyway, and on top of that didn't even manage to understand that you can have problems without destroying progress.&nbsp;&nbsp; Things can stay saved for a while.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's a big galaxy.&nbsp; I never much liked the extended universe because it was mostly poorly written, but TPA was so badly written it would never have been accepted for publication.&nbsp; It wouldn't even have been a particularly popular EU fanfic.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7705792, member: 4937"] You are being far to generous here. These movies were discussed in detail for hours before they decided on a direction for the script, and lots of people got input. If you think at some point the implications we are discussing here won't discussed, I feel that's incredibly naïve. No, I can tell you the sorts of conversations that were had. People sitting at that table said things like: "We don't want to be laden down with a lot of canon." "I need to have complete artistic freedom." "It needs to have elements that are familiar to the fans. The reason they didn't like The Phantom Menace is that it had too many new elements." "Fundamentally, the really good story, the story that people want to hear has already been done. The only way to recapture the magic is reboot everything from scratch. That way, we can then redo the core narrative of Star Wars - but in a new way." "This has to be the story of a new generation of heroes. We can't have the old generation of heroes in the way or solving their problems. The best way to do that is if the old generation of heroes has failed. That tidies up everything. It explains why we need new heroes. It explains why there is a problem." "By its very nature, a sequel to the OT was bound to reverse what the heroes achieved." "Kids these days, they don't want things to be black and white. These movies have to be dark and gritty. Complex. Morally complex. With flawed characters." Or course, all that is hogswill, but that or something like it is how the conversations had to go, or you'd never end up with TFA. Four people worked on that script. A dozen people signed off on it. Probably none of them actually said, "I'm going to burn down the originally trilogy and assassinate the beloved character's character. I'm going to murder them far more thoroughly than just sticking a lightsaber through them. I'm going to render them failed, pathetic, moral degenerates, bereft of hope or honor." But while they never came right out and said it, that's exactly what they plotted to do and worked at doing with great fervor. TFA is no 'ooopsy'. It's not the work of one amateur kid in the basement somewhere thoughtless writing up a script, and then going, "You know, I never thought of it like that." This was a deliberate slate cleaning. And someone involved was acting with deliberate malice. There is Sith work in this. I totally reject that. It's possible to make a movie be entirely bleak without being mean-spirited, without having bad deaths, and without having the opposite of redemption. Characters can die, people can be mourned, battles can be lost, but without compromising honor and without telling a nihilistic story of evil's eternal triumph. Whether something is bleak is not a matter of its physical reality, but a matter of its spiritual reality. This is true in all stories, but its especially true in a fantasy where you reifying the symbols into tangible things. At the end of 'Return of the Jedi', the rebels had made a great triumph over the Emperor. But, the galaxy was still divided, the Empire largely undefeated, the whorl wasted from 50 years of civil war and conflict and mismanagement, and more importantly the light had gone out of the universe. All the problems at the end of the prequels that allowed the Sith to take over were still there. People lacked hope. The galaxy was filled with corruption and nepotism. Slavery was tolerated. The guardians of the light had failed in their wisdom, becoming almost morally indistinguishable from the Sith. The Jedi are all but gone from the universe. There are still extraordinary challenges to overcome that are ahead that don't involve destroying all resemblance of forward progress. Most of the extended universe stories are really bad, and they focus far too much on super-weapons as if there was only one fantasy plot and it always involved a dragon, and they never really developed new characters the way that they should have, and they stayed way too stuck on family matters - as if there is only one sort of twist you can have in a plot and it involves someone being secretly related to someone else. But... TPA had all those problems anyway, and on top of that didn't even manage to understand that you can have problems without destroying progress. Things can stay saved for a while. It's a big galaxy. I never much liked the extended universe because it was mostly poorly written, but TPA was so badly written it would never have been accepted for publication. It wouldn't even have been a particularly popular EU fanfic. [/QUOTE]

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