Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
RPG Evolution: Playing Your PC Poorly
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8587504" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Yeah, something that is often overlooked or intentionally (and IMO wrongly) ignored about "play weak characters!" is the official and unofficial incentives. Which is a drum I've beaten so many times I'll have to replace the head soon, but I'm not gonna stop!</p><p></p><p>Games like Fate reward the player for choosing to play out the negative facets of their Aspects, and make it costly to choose not to play out those things. That creates a play space where, yes, accepting a Compel means you suffer some kind of problem or setback, but there is both the intangible reward of "this enriches the experience and makes it more interesting," and the tangible reward of "you now have another Fate point that can turn a critical moment into success." Further, the player's agency is respected up to a point: the system doesn't allow players to ignore every Compel forever, but it does give players the option of spending their resources if they really, truly cannot accept the consequences of a particular Compel. Doing so can also enrich the story, by presenting a moment when a character is tempted or struggles against their own nature and exhibits uncommon virtue in the process.</p><p></p><p>More importantly, by having things codified in this way, the DM is encouraged to think in terms of what incentives they provide and to offer Compels that players will actually be comfortable (maybe even enthusiastic) about accepting. These faults, flaws, and failings then cease to be "look at how much you suck," and instead become "look at the struggle you're going through." They cease to be <em>poor play,</em> and instead become <em>fun opportunities</em>.</p><p></p><p>5e, and D&D more broadly, has unfortunately always been very bad at both of these things. I think 4e actually made some small strides in this department that were sadly <em>completely ignored</em> in 5e (specifically, the "quest experience" stuff and the Skill Challenge rules), but even in the edition I love best, the incentive structures and DM tools to make them cool and fun instead of punitive and frustrating are extremely thin. 5e's use of Inspiration, or rather the really really noteworthy <strong><em>lack</em></strong> of use in most groups, and the fact that Advantage is a poor tool for the intended function, leave it dangling by a thread of "well you should just WANT to roleplay characters that err and fail, because that's more interesting!" That line of thinking has the eternal problem: telling people that they should be just intrinsically motivated to do something that is extrinsically <em>very discouraging</em> is simply going to fail a lot of the time.</p><p></p><p>If D&D wants people to play flawed characters, or as I would prefer to phrase it, if D&D wants people to play grounded and relatable characters, it needs to offer actual (not just theoretical) incentives to do so, and it needs to give DMs both high quality advice on how to do that well, and well-made and flexible tools for making it happen. 5e as it stands does not do either of those things, and even my edition heartthrob is only a <em>small</em> step up.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8587504, member: 6790260"] Yeah, something that is often overlooked or intentionally (and IMO wrongly) ignored about "play weak characters!" is the official and unofficial incentives. Which is a drum I've beaten so many times I'll have to replace the head soon, but I'm not gonna stop! Games like Fate reward the player for choosing to play out the negative facets of their Aspects, and make it costly to choose not to play out those things. That creates a play space where, yes, accepting a Compel means you suffer some kind of problem or setback, but there is both the intangible reward of "this enriches the experience and makes it more interesting," and the tangible reward of "you now have another Fate point that can turn a critical moment into success." Further, the player's agency is respected up to a point: the system doesn't allow players to ignore every Compel forever, but it does give players the option of spending their resources if they really, truly cannot accept the consequences of a particular Compel. Doing so can also enrich the story, by presenting a moment when a character is tempted or struggles against their own nature and exhibits uncommon virtue in the process. More importantly, by having things codified in this way, the DM is encouraged to think in terms of what incentives they provide and to offer Compels that players will actually be comfortable (maybe even enthusiastic) about accepting. These faults, flaws, and failings then cease to be "look at how much you suck," and instead become "look at the struggle you're going through." They cease to be [I]poor play,[/I] and instead become [I]fun opportunities[/I]. 5e, and D&D more broadly, has unfortunately always been very bad at both of these things. I think 4e actually made some small strides in this department that were sadly [I]completely ignored[/I] in 5e (specifically, the "quest experience" stuff and the Skill Challenge rules), but even in the edition I love best, the incentive structures and DM tools to make them cool and fun instead of punitive and frustrating are extremely thin. 5e's use of Inspiration, or rather the really really noteworthy [B][I]lack[/I][/B] of use in most groups, and the fact that Advantage is a poor tool for the intended function, leave it dangling by a thread of "well you should just WANT to roleplay characters that err and fail, because that's more interesting!" That line of thinking has the eternal problem: telling people that they should be just intrinsically motivated to do something that is extrinsically [I]very discouraging[/I] is simply going to fail a lot of the time. If D&D wants people to play flawed characters, or as I would prefer to phrase it, if D&D wants people to play grounded and relatable characters, it needs to offer actual (not just theoretical) incentives to do so, and it needs to give DMs both high quality advice on how to do that well, and well-made and flexible tools for making it happen. 5e as it stands does not do either of those things, and even my edition heartthrob is only a [I]small[/I] step up. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
RPG Evolution: Playing Your PC Poorly
Top