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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8549588" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>There is not one single class in 5e with Vancian casting. Subclasses being worked into the classes is pure undiluted 4e. Different progressions for powers and abilities were part of Essentials. As for seeming 3e I see no Paragon Paths anywhere.</p><p></p><p>I'm curious which classes those are. Because I'm trying to think of any without specific things like damage mechanics and intended roles.</p><p></p><p>HD are healing surges and equate to nothing in 3.X. HP are a flat number rather than rolled. Flat hit points per level, a game that really gets started at level 3, and a personal recovery mechanic is 4e with a light coat of 3e paint.</p><p></p><p>It's possible to make the claim that it seems more <em>AD&D</em> than 4e. But 3.X was incredibly distinctive with a huge pile of feats, "spell like abilities" dominating everything, monster types overwhelming everything. Meanwhile the monsters (especially the later ones) have a lot of 4e style movement ability and very few of them are wizards with prosthetic foreheads.</p><p></p><p>And then the movement abilities are there and continuously coming back. Picking a pocket as a bonus/swift/minor action is a power, not a -20 on a skill check. You can move <em>and</em> attack.</p><p></p><p></p><p>What? Vestigial? Although this is an actual place it is.</p><p></p><p>There is this - and this makes 5e the worst saving throw system (with 3.X being second worst).</p><p></p><p>It seems like a 4e lite to me. But 4e grew out of 3.5</p><p></p><p>Monster design is a complete and utter rejection of 3.X monster design, thank goodness. There are no special rules for subtypes. There's no looking things up - and you get racial powers like all goblins having a free disengage. It's 4e lite, dropping the tactics while keeping most of the philosophy.</p><p></p><p>You mean that it's debatable whether it seems more like the literal game that gave you actual proficiency bonus of +2 or +3 for being proficient in your weapon (rather than a penalty for not being proficient) and where everyone scaled at the same rate than the one that had non-proficiency penalties and where different classes had different BAB rates? That's a very short debate.</p><p></p><p>They are.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not Vancian. It's its own thing.</p><p></p><p>Starting HP - when you're intended to start at 3rd level. Monster design is very little to do with 3.X. And there are movement powers there. It's a lite version of 4e - but most monster type has powers and they do not have feats.</p><p></p><p>That's because 4e minions were a different solution to the problem bounded accuracy tries to solve.</p><p></p><p>There is no such thing as a "bounded accuracy 3e monster". It doesn't exist. So the 4e minion would be closer than an actual 3e monster - and have the same sort of effect as the 5e monster. Meanwhile 3e has nothing. It's the reason bounded accuracy is needed because it scales so harshly.</p><p></p><p>This looks like word salad to me.</p><p></p><p>The 5e subclasses were more or less taken straight out of 4e. 3e didn't have them at all. And even when 3e had something that very vaguely resembles subclasses they are far closer to the 4e version with something from powers thrown in. To take an obvious example a 3e illusionist is simply someone who gets to cast a free illusion spell per day but can't cast from a specific school of spells. A 4e and a 5e illusionist both get no more spells than generalist wizards and no spells they can't cast that other wizards can or ones they can that other wizards can't. But they are actually better with illusions than non-illusionists.</p><p></p><p>And no the subclasses aren't where they put roles. They basically just didn't name the roles and didn't put much in in the way of explicit defender mechanics. A 4e evoker might be a controller on paper - but are a lot more like a striker. Just as they are in 5e except (just as with a lot of the rest of 5e) they realised that a lot of people wanted obfuscated game design reason.</p><p></p><p>I'd say that they pretty obviously are. And one of the reasons 3.0 had problems and 3.5 didn't fix it is that no one bothered to check what e.g. the monk's role in combat was. (The 1e monk it was based on was a thief with the serial numbers filed off).</p><p></p><p>In practice in 4e defences get better at different rates thanks to ability score increases. 3 points over 30 levels is half as fast as 4 points over 20 levels, but it's something. And then there are the feats and whether you have one feat covering all your NADs or one to three separate ones (and the feats also scale with level).</p><p></p><p>This is one place where 5e throwing 3.X paint on a 4e engine made it less functional.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8549588, member: 87792"] There is not one single class in 5e with Vancian casting. Subclasses being worked into the classes is pure undiluted 4e. Different progressions for powers and abilities were part of Essentials. As for seeming 3e I see no Paragon Paths anywhere. I'm curious which classes those are. Because I'm trying to think of any without specific things like damage mechanics and intended roles. HD are healing surges and equate to nothing in 3.X. HP are a flat number rather than rolled. Flat hit points per level, a game that really gets started at level 3, and a personal recovery mechanic is 4e with a light coat of 3e paint. It's possible to make the claim that it seems more [I]AD&D[/I] than 4e. But 3.X was incredibly distinctive with a huge pile of feats, "spell like abilities" dominating everything, monster types overwhelming everything. Meanwhile the monsters (especially the later ones) have a lot of 4e style movement ability and very few of them are wizards with prosthetic foreheads. And then the movement abilities are there and continuously coming back. Picking a pocket as a bonus/swift/minor action is a power, not a -20 on a skill check. You can move [I]and[/I] attack. What? Vestigial? Although this is an actual place it is. There is this - and this makes 5e the worst saving throw system (with 3.X being second worst). It seems like a 4e lite to me. But 4e grew out of 3.5 Monster design is a complete and utter rejection of 3.X monster design, thank goodness. There are no special rules for subtypes. There's no looking things up - and you get racial powers like all goblins having a free disengage. It's 4e lite, dropping the tactics while keeping most of the philosophy. You mean that it's debatable whether it seems more like the literal game that gave you actual proficiency bonus of +2 or +3 for being proficient in your weapon (rather than a penalty for not being proficient) and where everyone scaled at the same rate than the one that had non-proficiency penalties and where different classes had different BAB rates? That's a very short debate. They are. It's not Vancian. It's its own thing. Starting HP - when you're intended to start at 3rd level. Monster design is very little to do with 3.X. And there are movement powers there. It's a lite version of 4e - but most monster type has powers and they do not have feats. That's because 4e minions were a different solution to the problem bounded accuracy tries to solve. There is no such thing as a "bounded accuracy 3e monster". It doesn't exist. So the 4e minion would be closer than an actual 3e monster - and have the same sort of effect as the 5e monster. Meanwhile 3e has nothing. It's the reason bounded accuracy is needed because it scales so harshly. This looks like word salad to me. The 5e subclasses were more or less taken straight out of 4e. 3e didn't have them at all. And even when 3e had something that very vaguely resembles subclasses they are far closer to the 4e version with something from powers thrown in. To take an obvious example a 3e illusionist is simply someone who gets to cast a free illusion spell per day but can't cast from a specific school of spells. A 4e and a 5e illusionist both get no more spells than generalist wizards and no spells they can't cast that other wizards can or ones they can that other wizards can't. But they are actually better with illusions than non-illusionists. And no the subclasses aren't where they put roles. They basically just didn't name the roles and didn't put much in in the way of explicit defender mechanics. A 4e evoker might be a controller on paper - but are a lot more like a striker. Just as they are in 5e except (just as with a lot of the rest of 5e) they realised that a lot of people wanted obfuscated game design reason. I'd say that they pretty obviously are. And one of the reasons 3.0 had problems and 3.5 didn't fix it is that no one bothered to check what e.g. the monk's role in combat was. (The 1e monk it was based on was a thief with the serial numbers filed off). In practice in 4e defences get better at different rates thanks to ability score increases. 3 points over 30 levels is half as fast as 4 points over 20 levels, but it's something. And then there are the feats and whether you have one feat covering all your NADs or one to three separate ones (and the feats also scale with level). This is one place where 5e throwing 3.X paint on a 4e engine made it less functional. [/QUOTE]
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