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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Deleted member 7015506" data-source="post: 7821989">[USER=59554]@Panda-s1[/USER] I am old fashioned, when it comes to portray the different races IG. So, and I may be wrong, Orcs were always the bad guys. I don´t know if Tolkien invented them this way at first or he took inspiration from some myths and legends, but in the current MM they are also portrayed as "savage raiders and pillagers ", "satiesfy their bloodlust by plundering villages, devouring or driving off roaming herds, and slaying any humanoids that stand against them. After savaging  a settlement... etc.etc." (p. 244). And on page 245 under the section Orc Crossbreeds is stated: "Luthic,..., wife of gruumsh , demands that orcs procreate often and indiscriminately so that orc hordes swell generation after generation. The orcs' drive to reproduce runs stronger than any other humanoid race, and they readily crossbreed with other races." So these two descriptions alone imply for me, that according to the basic standard orcs are not the good guys (but I may be wrong) and my remark "pretty obvious" should be backed by this and explained.And without reading or quoting past editions of the MM, orcs are IIRC presented more or less the same.Now that doesn´t imply, that all individual campaigns at every table are or should be played that way, and everybody is free to do otherwise, but at least the basic implication is there saying, that orcs are the baddies (for whatever reason). Perhaps a bit narrow minded from me since more modern games and takes on the game handle orcs different, but at least I see it that way.IIRC somehwhere in 1E (Greyhawk setting?) there were percentile beakdowns of half-orc populations for each city. Now that is justified, when they are treated as a normal playable race. But already in 1E the question comes up, how half-orcs fit into societies where orcs are hated by elves and dwarves and vice versa. One of the controversal points of 1E for me. The question for how humans come into existence? Well a very provocative question (which I like in a good discussion). As an example I amassuming, that a player may decide that his or her PC was born "illegitimate". The reasons for that may be manyfold and everyone in deciding for this path has to be answered for the player himself or herself. Otherwise I assume, and I think perhaps others too, normal RL ways apply in an RPG also with all its different aspects.For the Weird Tales covers: The portraying of women in the mentioned way was certainly not up to everybody's taste, and I can imagine, that they also contributed for such magazines as being considered trash by a many regardless of the actual content. But for how long where these kinds of covers published and openly sold? Why wasn´t there a landwide outrage from the first day? Now I am not an expert on this matter, but why did it take so long until that changed? It took a long way until such things were widely considered offensive and society in general was different back then. I would certainly be interested in reading more on this subject, since I can imagine, that the publication of magazines like Weird Tales for example rose more than just one eyebrow even back then. But the prolonged publication implies, that it was somehow tolerated for women being portrayed like the said way.Why I don´t want a discussion about the racism aspect towards the handling of goblinoid specimen? A perhaps one sided, very subjective answer from me:Real life racism is an everyday all present problem that is affecting our lives in one way or the other. It is an ongoing daily struggle to eradicate it. Unfortunately I believe, that although we as a society came a good way forward, it will take still a long time until all people realize the equality of men. And since I play for recreation and entertainment, do I have to carry all RL problems into my game? Is it necessary to be "true to reality" even in my free time? The answer for me is simply no.And a question from my side: What does your remark "or maybe people are starting to question what is and isn't "obvious" and what actually makes sense in a fantasy setting. people don't shy away from all orcs being evil because they're "offended', it's because they know that idea is based in some weird ideology that turns out is not actually true." imply? Do I understand it right, that people start rethinking the handling of orcs? Well they can certainly do so, but implying that the handling/presentation of orcs always as the bad guys "based in some weird ideology" gives me the impression, that orcs are generally currently unfair treated as a kind of sub-race which needs to be totally terminated and eradicated for some obscure ideological reasons. I may be wrong in this point, but sorry that sounds for me like connecting a fantasy RPG directly to the Shoah. Or how is this to be understood, when you say it´s "actually not true"? What is the truth behind the nature of the orcs I wonder then.</blockquote>

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