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Message: <blockquote data-quote="HammerMan" data-source="post: 8564965" data-attributes="member: 84112">my tables have long leaned on Character skill not Player skill.SOmetimes this means someone gets the right answer or makes the perfect argument then roll a 4 on an untrained Int or Cha check and it doesn't work, but then someone else makes a dumb idea and/or a really bad argument backed by a 24 skill check and it works.I still assume somethings are just impossible (no jumping to the moon, no you can't convince the king to give you his kingdom) but once you start into possible things you need things on your sheet and in the game to do them.Years ago we had problems doing the reverse, and found people dump stating Cha because they could "just talk around it"   I found it funny because some of the smartest more charismatic characters in 2e and early 3e had 8-11 in those stats cause they didn't need them. I also assume there are things you can 'just do' no roll required if you have a moderate level of in game knowledge.  Any time a DC (yes including saves, yes even attack rolls vs AC, yes what every you are thinking) is 10 or less and you are trained you auto succeed, but you might roll to see how well you do. (and yes that means bards with + 1/2 prof to everything make every DC10 or lower check ever)Over the years I have found that people that want to play smart characters (we used to play with an engineer) had to choose to either put stats/points/profs in things, or just advise other players that did with ideas. Mean while kids and shy people and ones that barely understand a lever can choose to play smart characters. (the same way people who are clumbsy get to play dex characters)The harder end (but it did work before we stopped with 3e) was the good talkers... the real life salesmen, the charismatic players had  a hard time with "Okay, I love it, sounds great, roll to see how well your character gets that across" followed by a few early complaints... but it is going smoothly now.</blockquote>

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